More/ larger galaxies

[Cholmondely]

So by customisable jump distances I mean hyperdrives that can have different jump ranges, a bit like in Frontier or E:D. This would of course break the base game in Oolite, because because game works around the premise of 7 light years being the limit. But for scenarios involving a larger galaxy this would be a great feature to have. Again, changing the number of galaxies/systems and the size of galaxies would break the base game as the base game needs these things to be constant, but for new scenarios this would be a brilliant feature. I'm fairly certain the scenario feature was added after I came up with my code hacks, which actually if you sift through the forums I originally did much earlier than even 2014, so back then this would have (possibly) had an impact on the base game but I don't think that would be the case now thanks to the scenario feature.

I'm going to polish up my generator so that it can at least show some examples and then I'll post up some results and I'll put the code onto a public github repo. The next step after I've got it successfully generating standard oolite galaxies, will be to start implementing the features that allow uninhabited systems, factions, realistic suns (no green ones!), multi planet systems with realistic positions and planet types (rocky, icy, gas, etc...) and so on!

EDIT: Also the hidden systems is already a feature in Oolite, so this is already possible.

Redspear came out with a Hyperdrives OXP which features different jump ranges (and I'm sure that Phkb's Ship Configuration OXP does so too). But one starts with a 5.5ly jump and then works up. What is interesting is the effect on galaxial geography (Sorry - "geo"-graphy has to be the wrong word for this), the islands and penisulae which slowly emerge from the mainland as the shoreline advances with the decreased jump ranges (unless one can hitch a lift with somebody with a better hyperdrive).

Day's Diplomancy OXP has a version of faction implementation with the Commies all ganging up together (and probably others too - I just noticed the commies near Digebiti and near Qubeen). Strangers World OXP suite does the multi-planet systems with realistic positions and planet types.

[Pleb]

Redspear came out with a Hyperdrives OXP which features different jump ranges (and I'm sure that Phkb's Ship Configuration OXP does so too). But one starts with a 5.5ly jump and then works up. What is interesting is the effect on galaxial geography (Sorry - "geo"-graphy has to be the wrong word for this), the islands and penisulae which slowly emerge from the mainland as the shoreline advances with the decreased jump ranges (unless one can hitch a lift with somebody with a better hyperdrive).

Phkb's OXP only deals with the countdown timer, not the fuel/jump limit. And Redspear's OXP is great, but they are still limited by the 7 light year max jump (which is fine for the most part but if your map is huge then 7 light years may be an issue...not to sure about this maybe 7 light years is ok...). What I'm not sure about about cannot test yet as on phone atm, is whather when drawing the available routes to be taken in the long range chart, does the chart take your fuel limit into consideration or does it always draw the lines based on the premise that all engines can travel 7 light years? If not would be good to get it to draw the lines based on your ship's fuel capabilities.

Day's Diplomancy OXP has a version of faction implementation with the Commies all ganging up together (and probably others too - I just noticed the commies near Digebiti and near Qubeen). Strangers World OXP suite does the multi-planet systems with realistic positions and planet types.

For factions and planets I have an idea in mind but I will check these out.

[Cholmondely]

Redspear came out with a Hyperdrives OXP which features different jump ranges (and I'm sure that Phkb's Ship Configuration OXP does so too). But one starts with a 5.5ly jump and then works up. What is interesting is the effect on galaxial geography (Sorry - "geo"-graphy has to be the wrong word for this), the islands and penisulae which slowly emerge from the mainland as the shoreline advances with the decreased jump ranges (unless one can hitch a lift with somebody with a better hyperdrive).

Phkb's OXP only deals with the countdown timer, not the fuel/jump limit. And Redspear's OXP is great, but they are still limited by the 7 light year max jump (which is fine for the most part but if your map is huge then 7 light years may be an issue...not to sure about this maybe 7 light years is ok...). What I'm not sure about about cannot test yet as on phone atm, is whather when drawing the available routes to be taken in the long range chart, does the chart take your fuel limit into consideration or does it always draw the lines based on the premise that all engines can travel 7 light years? If not would be good to get it to draw the lines based on your ship's fuel capabilities.

Day's Diplomancy OXP has a version of faction implementation with the Commies all ganging up together (and probably others too - I just noticed the commies near Digebiti and near Qubeen). Strangers World OXP suite does the multi-planet systems with realistic positions and planet types.

For factions and planets I have an idea in mind but I will check these out.

If the map is huge, then 7ly is probably not quite so crucial. But cim did bang on quite a bit about the importance of "geo"graphy - and how it was in effect created by the 7ly jump limit:

See: https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.ph ... 02#p212702 the different "feels" of each of the eight galaxies
See: https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.ph ... 10#p175510 Ensoreus, Edxebere and the 7ly jump limit

Reference: Strangers World http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/User:Stranger - see especially Habitable Main Planets, Moons, Planetary Systems & Sun Gear (there are also 10 Lunar & planetary texture packs recently updated for the v.1.90 graphics possibilities)
Reference: Diplomancy http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Diplomancy_OXP

[Pleb]

If the map is huge, then 7ly is probably not quite so crucial.

Yeah exceeding the 7 light years isn't critical and will probably be fine to be honest, I was thinking more about whether the game updates the hyperlanes based on how much fuel the ship can carry or whether its always drawn as being 7 light years regardless. I'll have to test this tomorrow and see!

[Redspear]

Bugging Redspear until he sees Red? Speak!

...of the Devil...

Cim provided some of that framework and even made SOTL to show it could be done, but that fact that no one continued that work I took to mean people weren't interested.

It was something I was very interested in but there was IIRC one rather vague wiki page and a 'poke under the hood' invite at a time when my coding was even worse that it is now. For me, it was rather like breaking into an old BASIC programme if you didn't know BASIC - you'd probably get there but it would be a bit of a slog.

I tried it at a time when I didn't have much time and consequently failed to invest the necessary time that I didn't have (...I think that makes sense...)

still limited by the 7 light year max jump (which is fine for the most part but if your map is huge then 7 light years may be an issue...not to sure about this maybe 7 light years is ok...).

Assuming that if you do have a larger map then you're making source code changes therefore increasing the 7LY limit is entirely doable. It certainly was previously because I've tried it and done it. It only makes sense in larger galaxies however (IMHO) and even then a larger galaxy with a correspondingly larger jump range may as well just be a regular sized but crowded galaxy. If galaxy size doesn't increase dispropotionately to jump range then I don't see the difference between the two from a gameplay perspective (more expensive fuel perhaps?)

If the map is huge, then 7ly is probably not quite so crucial.

Yeah exceeding the 7 light years isn't critical and will probably be fine to be honest, I was thinking more about whether the game updates the hyperlanes based on how much fuel the ship can carry or whether its always drawn as being 7 light years regardless. I'll have to test this tomorrow and see!

I suspect you'll see what I mean.

[Pleb]

It was something I was very interested in but there was IIRC one rather vague wiki page and a 'poke under the hood' invite at a time when my coding was even worse that it is now. For me, it was rather like breaking into an old BASIC programme if you didn't know BASIC - you'd probably get there but it would be a bit of a slog.

I tried it at a time when I didn't have much time and consequently failed to invest the necessary time that I didn't have (...I think that makes sense...)

I've looked at it myself on the github repo and the scripts cim wrote are brilliant for generating the new galaxies. However I'm much more proficient in C# so this is what I'm using to generate my galaxies and I've got a NuGet package that exports lists and arrays into ascii plists.

Assuming that if you do have a larger map then you're making source code changes therefore increasing the 7LY limit is entirely doable. It certainly was previously because I've tried it and done it. It only makes sense in larger galaxies however (IMHO) and even then a larger galaxy with a correspondingly larger jump range may as well just be a regular sized but crowded galaxy. If galaxy size doesn't increase dispropotionately to jump range then I don't see the difference between the two from a gameplay perspective (more expensive fuel perhaps?)

Oh I know it can be changed as I've done it myself but I'm sure it will be fine to leave it alone. Its more the hyperlane the game draws I wanted to know if it changed based on how much fuel the ship could carry or whether it is still always drawn as being 7 light years.

[Redspear]

Oh I know it can be changed as I've done it myself but I'm sure it will be fine to leave it alone. Its more the hyperlane the game draws I wanted to know if it changed based on how much fuel the ship could carry or whether it is still always drawn as being 7 light years.

I see.

From memory it was fine. The main 'problem' that I found with having ships with different jump ranges was that the advanced navigation array assuming the max fuel limit equalled the player ship limit (the latter of which I was fudging). I considered adjusting the ANA to adjust to plot according to current player fuel but that's not perfect either.

If max player fuel were set to something like: 4.0 + AFC (additional fuel capacity) and AFC was given a default of 3.0 but could be defined in shipdata.plist then that could work a treat. Might want to put a cap on AFC of, for example, 8.0 (but on the other hand, why bother there are other ways to UBER jump distance: wormhole creation/teleport/etc.).

[Cholmondely]

Oh I know it can be changed as I've done it myself but I'm sure it will be fine to leave it alone. Its more the hyperlane the game draws I wanted to know if it changed based on how much fuel the ship could carry or whether it is still always drawn as being 7 light years.

I see.

From memory it was fine. The main 'problem' that I found with having ships with different jump ranges was that the advanced navigation array assuming the max fuel limit equalled the player ship limit (the latter of which I was fudging). I considered adjusting the ANA to adjust to plot according to current player fuel but that's not perfect either.

If max player fuel were set to something like: 4.0 + AFC (additional fuel capacity) and AFC was given a default of 3.0 but could be defined in shipdata.plist then that could work a treat. Might want to put a cap on AFC of, for example, 8.0 (but on the other hand, why bother there are other ways to UBER jump distance: wormhole creation/teleport/etc.).

Gentlemen: I'd like to put up a map on our wiki showing how the jump range affects the geography - showing the contours of Galaxy 1 when the jump range is, say 5ly. Can I presume from your dialogue that this is currently impossible?

Reference: http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Geography

[Pleb]

Gentlemen: I'd like to put up a map on our wiki showing how the jump range affects the geography - showing the contours of Galaxy 1 when the jump range is, say 5ly. Can I presume from your dialogue that this is currently impossible?

Reference: http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Geography

So the images I put up years ago showing connectivity if it was 3 light years or 5 light years were made by modifying the source. The hyperlanes drawn on the Galactic map are always drawn assuming 7 light years is the max distance for all jumps.

I've put up a beta release of my galaxy generator. Its by no means perfect or finished but feel free to mess about with it. Once I've perfected it generating standard oolite galaxies I will move on to the fun part of generating new types of galaxies!

[Cholmondely]

Gentlemen: I'd like to put up a map on our wiki showing how the jump range affects the geography - showing the contours of Galaxy 1 when the jump range is, say 5ly. Can I presume from your dialogue that this is currently impossible?

Reference: http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Geography

So the images I put up years ago showing connectivity if it was 3 light years or 5 light years were made by modifying the source. The hyperlanes drawn on the Galactic map are always drawn assuming 7 light years is the max distance for all jumps.

I've put up a beta release of my galaxy generator. Its by no means perfect or finished but feel free to mess about with it. Once I've perfected it generating standard oolite galaxies I will move on to the fun part of generating new types of galaxies!

Brilliant... Thank you!

[Cholmondely]

Ehm, no.

A_C - I've been trawling through this thread. And wondering.

How much work would it really be to expand the 8 galaxies? Is it easily do-able - or would it constitute a major vandalisation of everything, breaking OXPs right, left and centre, and causing all sorts of unforeseen upsets?




What I'm thinking about is this: there is much discussion in the lore about hidden systems which are not on the GalCop-approved F6 charts - as well as references to systems east of Ascension (Sori) in G1.



If we could (i) expand the potential number of systems, (ii) not use them all (so the numbers are not a predictable immersion-breaking 512 for every single galaxy), (iii) expand the size of G1 beyond what is shown on the F6 chart, then

a) we could introduce some hidden systems inside the chart but not shown on it (Cody's "Kaxgar" system inside G2 Takla Makla, for example)

b) we could spill over the G1 east edge with the high tech systems alluded to in Ascension write-up.

c) have some empty uninhabited systems (as in SOTL altmap)

d) we could add in Thargoid worlds

e) we could add in Raxxla

Et cetera.


It would also need hiding the systems and the routes to them from display until they were revealed (but I think that we already have that in the vanilla game code)



Reference: Pleb's announcement of coding it - and start of discussion



Edited to add: I would presume that only a handful of these extra systems would actually be "used" with a slightly larger number of empty systems there for "show", as it were.

[Redspear]

FWIW, I see three main potential benefits to having larger galaxies.

• OXP possibilities
  • some of which Cholmondely has mentoned
• Freedom from seed generation/holy cows
  • no need to change what's already there
  • no need to correlate tech, government, productivity etc. in same manner
• Scope/Immersion - relates to and the prior points
  • can get 'lost' in a galaxy
  • could explore interesting ideas like lower tech in outer systems without effectively 'diminishing' the galaxy sizes we currently have

Of course it's a lot of work without returning to a seed based generation but Pleb has shown (and others already knew) that this can be done.

[Wildeblood]

If we could (i) expand the potential number of systems,

(ii) not use them all (so the numbers are not a predictable immersion-breaking 512 for every single galaxy),

(iii) expand the size of G1 beyond what is shown on the F6 chart,

i. Unnecessary. The 2048 includes more than enough useless spares no-one cares about.

ii. This is important. Having exactly 256 visible on each chart is lame. We have the technology now - hide some. Starting a game with 0-56 hidden on each chart will improve the game.

iii. East of chart 1 lies chart 2. Stop the 8 galaxies nonsense. Tone down the grandiosity of the Galactic hyperdrive. (It's not an inter-galactic hyperdrive, it's just a brand name.)

[another_commander]

How much work would it really be to expand the 8 galaxies? Is it easily do-able - or would it constitute a major vandalisation of everything, breaking OXPs right, left and centre, and causing all sorts of unforeseen upsets?

In an ideal world it should have been easy. Change a number from 256 to whatever and now your galaxies have whatever planets each.

Unfortunately our world is far from ideal.

After many years of different devs working on a quarter of a million lines of code, focusing on different things each, we now have a codebase with at least two different constants representing the number of planets per galaxy, interspersed with a bunch of stray appearances of the numbers 255 and 256 referring to the same thing. Which means that if one wanted to change number of planets in a galaxy one would have to go through the code with a fine comb and replace all of this stuff with one and only one easily locatable constant with default value of 255, then change that value only once.

So right now the code is a bit if a mess in that regard. This is what makes the change so difficult. At this time the assumption that each galaxy contains 256 planets is present pretty much everywhere you look.

And most likely the assumption of 8 galaxies is also pretty much everywhere but I didn't have the courage to look.

[Redspear]

Which means that if one wanted to change number of planets in a galaxy one would have to go through the code with a fine comb and replace all of this stuff with one and only one easily locatable constant with default value of 255, then change that value only once.

After some time investigating aspects of the source code, I've seen similar with laser and scanner range assumptions when it was likely presumed that they wouldn't need to be changed.

So right now the code is a bit if a mess in that regard. This is what makes the change so difficult. At this time the assumption that each galaxy contains 256 planets is present pretty much everywhere you look.

Is this significantly more true however that when Pleb made those tinkerings that produced the results illustrated on these boards?

And for reasons you suggested, I appreciate that you may not be in a position to answer that with any certainty.