Metafiction: Dialogues on the Lore of Xlite

[user2357]

Best old Chum

I'm just trying to come up with names for landing sites. Names rooted in the Lore where there is any! As mentioned, the Lore I'm checking is purely on the wiki (Rough Guide pages & Galaxy Guide pages) and in the Famous Planets OXP's planetinfo.plist.

Landing sites... planetinfo.plist... OK. I see. Got it.

Incidentally, do you have any ideas as to who actually developed the lore for Lave? All that stuff about the Empress living on the moon, Basta, the four continents etc. Was it Selezen himself, or does it predate him?

Nope. No idea. Could the Lave lore have been developed somewhere in the Gazetteer, Stories of Life on the Frontier, Further Stories of Life on the Frontier and/or the FFE Journals? IIRC, Ashoria was first mentioned somewhere in some of all this original Frontier documentation, but I'm no Frontier scholar. It's been yonks since I read that, and realised that it's incompatible with the original Elite -- which sometimes even seems to be incompatible with itself!

Regarding Isveve, though... Should it ever happen, perhaps any potential landing-site on that planet might be described in such a manner as to reflect wise old Mr. Zetter's opinion of the place, quoted here above somewhere...

I'll take a peek at the Famous Planets planetinfo, and keep on thinking about this, and drop a line here if anything more appropriate and applicable comes to mind.

Continued expediency and great success to you!

Kindest
user

[Cholmondely]

Point of interest: G1 Aona

According to the Dark Wheel, Aona is underwater with only the tips of volcanoes poking out above the waves.

But the three textures (Vanilla game, Povray & Stranger's FPO) show none of this. (It is missing from BPlanets)



Reference: Suggestion: Aquaspace aka H2Oolite (2012-15)

[Selezen]

Incidentally, do you have any ideas as to who actually developed the lore for Lave? All that stuff about the Empress living on the moon, Basta, the four continents etc. Was it Selezen himself, or does it predate him?

Nope. No idea. Could the Lave lore have been developed somewhere in the Gazetteer, Stories of Life on the Frontier, Further Stories of Life on the Frontier and/or the FFE Journals? IIRC, Ashoria was first mentioned somewhere in some of all this original Frontier documentation, but I'm no Frontier scholar. It's been yonks since I read that, and realised that it's incompatible with the original Elite -- which sometimes even seems to be incompatible with itself!

Anything I have written about Lave Lore is probably cobbled together from the original Elite Manual, Dark Wheel and Impact novellas. I did try and flesh some of it out in the short stories I did, but they're very non-canon these days. I THINK Ashoria came from Impact.

It's worth noting that the "Elite" lore is very grey. Right back at the start of it all, Rob Holdstock wrote the manual and novellae without ever seeing the game, and the game was developed without much interaction between game authors and book author. That's why they have absolutely no links to each other, i.e. "Her Imperial Majesty's Space Navy" in the game and no siuch thing in the books...

It was the 80s. We were all too busy buying denim jackets and watching Fall Guy.

[user2357]

I THINK Ashoria came from Impact.

Yes. Looked it up. Can confirm. Ashoria is mentioned in Imprint, p. i6, par. 2, CHAPTER 2.

It's worth noting that the "Elite" lore is very grey. Right back at the start of it all, Rob Holdstock wrote the manual and novellae without ever seeing the game, and the game was developed without much interaction between game authors and book author. That's why they have absolutely no links to each other, i.e. "Her Imperial Majesty's Space Navy" in the game and no siuch thing in the books...

Here's an account of some events related to original development and authoring, from Robert Holdstock's website; he admits to having been 'hopeless with games' and 'a failing Elitist'. So, he probably only got a relatively quick and basic introduction to the simulator experience.

[Cholmondely]

Oolite-specific Lore (not based on Classic Elite)

Just had a natter with Cody.

He was saying that he had argued here some time ago for Oolite-specific lore (and that his fiction was supposed to be a move in this direction).

That the lore that came with Classic Elite was wrong - (Holdstock invented all sorts of things not in the game, and he was a fantasy writer, not a science fiction writer).

And that the lore created by Drew and others, based on Elite or even Frontier, was needlessly including all this stuff (eg: the Dark Wheel/Raxxla) not in the game of Oolite.

(There are of course many OXPs which re-introduce the lore from Elite/Frontier directly back into Oolite.)



Reference: Lore

[user2357]

My perspective is that, since Giles Williams' intention was apparently that Oolite should be a continuation of the original Elite (including Elite Plus and it's novella Imprint, ArcElite, NES Elite, and Angus Duggan's Elite A; Paul Brink's Elite B is an interesting animal that I would argue for being included as well), all later Frontier developments should be excluded from the lore (as Dylan Smith's original Oolite story The Virtuous Misfortune indicates that Elite and Frontier take place in different universes, separated by a misjump), and it should be attempted to find some consolidation between Robert Holdstock's Dark Wheel and Space Trader's Flight Training Manual lore and how things are presented to play out in the actual Elite simulator.

I agree with Cody that there is a LOT of nonsense in The Dark Wheel and other original lore-documents, but I'm also of the opinion that perhaps the challenge is to try to find some way to explain how that nonsense came to arise in the Elite universe. Agreed: not easy to meet that challenge, but think about it long and hard enough, and I'm sure somebody somewhere will begin to figure out something.

For me, Oolite and Elite are synonymous, and "Oolite-specific" lore is actually based on Classic Elite.

...but I'm also willing to concede that we live in a multi-verse, and if other commanders would like exclude Classic Elite form their Oolite universe, then they'll just be "those other crazy neighbours over there on the other side of the river", or something.

[phkb]

I think it's also safe to conclude that any resolution (or an attempt at one) is likely to be messy - just like real life, really.

[Cholmondely]

1) Cody. Cody was coming from a particular place - his acquaintance with Classic Elite was devoid of any of the literature, just the software itself. He only read the literature much later, and found then that it did not fit with the game software. He thus rejected it as bunk.

This might account for his preference for Oolite lore based purely on the game with no references to anything else. And his oxp preferences are almost entirely just for ambience - improving the graphics (and thus having no effect on the lore).



2) Tidying up our lore. It is an unholy mess. We have Drew's efforts and those of others such as CymAngus, trying to combine Classic Elite, Frontier & Oolite. I presume that are others based on Holdstockian Elite + Oolite. Then Cody's purist Oolite approach. And then Cim's less purist vanilla Oolite with extra added-on add-ons explaining Oolite's peculiarities.

But any desire to establish an Oolite canon - or to "censor the lore" - seems futile. How many of those downloading the game then peruse this BB? Or our wikipedia? And of those how many start reading up about the lore? Or knowingly select lore-based oxps for incorporation in their game?

There is the legacy of the conflicting lore already there. Add in those of us inspired by Holdstock, and those inspired by Frontier, and then our newcomers to Oolite who know nothing of either.

And the nature of our project - anybody can contribute fiction, OXPs, edit our wiki etc makes such tidying up open to reversal or bodging.



3) But what about adding lore to our games?

I think that we can almost entirely replicate Classic Elite for the BBC. One just adds in the Energy Bomb oxp. Not too sure about the new equipment which Aegidian et al added in (targeting stuff, ASC, ANA, Wormhole scanner, Quirium Cascade mine etc.). Or the added ships (Viper Interceptors etc). The non-BBC versions of Classic Elite are presumably a better fit.

As regards the Holdstock literature we can add in Lave as described, TOGY, Generation Ships, Deep Space Dredgers, Ophidians, Liners, New Cargoes, etc. See Lore Collection (Classic Elite) for a fuller analysis. We're missing Raxxla and the Dark Wheel society, plus other stuff (including Holdstock's magical communications).

For Frontier/FFE things are much poorer. We have the ships and the missions, but not much else. Certainly not the same universe. Or the Empire and the Alliance.

Ditto of course for E:D.

[Wildeblood]

1) Cody. Cody was coming from a particular place - his acquaintance with Classic Elite was devoid of any of the literature, just the software itself. He only read the literature much later, and found then that it did not fit with the game software. He thus rejected it as bunk.

And, he was right.

This might account for his preference for Oolite lore based purely on the game with no references to anything else.

And, he was right.

[Redspear]

I think that we can almost entirely replicate Classic Elite for the BBC. One just adds in the Energy Bomb oxp.

Yay!

As regards the Holdstock literature we can add in Lave as described, TOGY, Generation Ships, Deep Space Dredgers, Ophidians, Liners, New Cargoes, etc. See Lore Collection (Classic Elite) for a fuller analysis. We're missing Raxxla and the Dark Wheel society, plus other stuff (including Holdstock's magical communications).

My take on Holdstock's contributions is that they were great, up to a point. That point for me was at the end of the flight training manual.

The proto-manual it seems was written by Ian Bell (evidenced on his website) but all the fluff that went around it was great food for the imagination. The observer's guide to ships in service was particularly drool-worthy at the time I thought and all of the detail that went into the equipment section made for fantastic flavour-fluff.

Once we got to the novella however it was a different brief: a story.

Esssentially, elite is almost devoid of story compared to almost any other computer game of its day. Chuckie Egg is by comparison almost Shakespearian tragedy. Elite? Board ship, wander around and buy things to get better at shooting stuff. 'Sandbox', right? It did have the missions however and they did have story or at least elements thereof.

Anyway, back on track (relatively...)

A sandbox game doesn't suit a story in the conventional sense because a story generally has direction, in the case of 'the dark wheel': revenge. RH had to work with the setting to support a different goal than the game itself had. So while we got some interesting things like the moray medical boats and the orbital graveyard, some of Lave's details could have been recycled from bladerunner and who could have blamed him?... Apart perhaps from Phillip K. Dick or Ridley Scott...

Raaxla and the Dark Wheel itself were particularly unsatisfying elements for me as they tried to give the game itself a story, or at least to blur the lines between the two. Maybe it was in the brief but it seemed altogether clunky and entirely disregardable even to my then pre-teen self. Sorry RH...

[Cholmondely]

My take on Holdstock's contributions is that they were great, up to a point. That point for me was at the end of the flight training manual.

The proto-manual it seems was written by Ian Bell (evidenced on his website) but all the fluff that went around it was great food for the imagination. The observer's guide to ships in service was particularly drool-worthy at the time I thought and all of the detail that went into the equipment section made for fantastic flavour-fluff.

I found Holdstock's Manual inspiring. And immersive. And just wonderful.

Raaxla and the Dark Wheel itself were particularly unsatisfying elements for me as they tried to give the game itself a story, or at least to blur the lines between the two. Maybe it was in the brief but it seemed altogether clunky and entirely disregardable even to my then pre-teen self.

But Raxxla, especially, seems to have been massively inspiring to lots of people who searched the game for it - and presumably went on to search Frontier/FFE/E:D too. We even have a thread here about it (2012) and a wiki page which was inaugurated in 2006 and since edited by 10 people (including Drew and Break)! (Click the "history tab" at the top to see what they did).

[Redspear]

I found Holdstock's Manual inspiring. And immersive. And just wonderful.

Yeah.

But Raxxla, especially, seems to have been massively inspiring to lots of people who searched the game for it - and presumably went on to search Frontier/FFE/E:D too. We even have a thread here about it (2012) and a wiki page which was inaugurated in 2006 and since edited by 10 people (including Drew and Break)! (Click the "history tab" at the top to see what they did).

So what am I missing?

Maybe its the desperate search for meaning. A mystery doesn't require a meaning but rather only the promise of one.

You mention Drew whom IIRC, was very much inspired by the novella. Being objective however, it did add another layer of lore (and inspire multiple layers therafter) and so the easy route to consitency is to ignore it. Whether or not that's a good idea however is up for debate.

[user2357]

Probably slightly on a tangent... Just came across the following video by Tale Foundry, titled Stories That Don't Want to be Told, regarding ergodic ... literature/games/art/stuff, and wondered, "Isn't Xlite ergodic perhaps?"

https://youtu.be/67nu_UXuSnI

[Cholmondely]

Probably slightly on a tangent... Just came across the following video by Tale Foundry, titled Stories That Don't Want to be Told, regarding ergodic ... literature/games/art/stuff, and wondered, "Isn't Xlite ergodic perhaps?"

https://youtu.be/67nu_UXuSnI

Is it?

The lore is confusing, but not by design. More thanks to several groups of people with widely differing agendas creating it. Ignore the ones you don't like and it is as Ergodic as the Witchspace Lobster.

The gameplay can be lethal. But only if you ignore all advice and insist doggedly on doing your own thing. Same thing in this world. Drive through a red traffic light. Jump off a 77-story building. Leap under an approaching train.... Is that really Ergodic?

[Wildeblood]

Having just googled "ergodic" and scanned the results page, I'm of the opinion this is a self-defining word. The various authoritative sources pointed to appear, to this layman, to contradict each other.