Planet Forests and Oceans

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Cholmondely
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Re: Planet Forests and Oceans

Post by Cholmondely »

I feel very strongly that this OXP should be part of the vanilla game code.

Unlike the markets and the other oolite gaming peculiarities, this is not (to the best of my knowledge) an inheritance from 8-bit classic elite which had wireframe planets together with the current goat-soup description allowing the player to imagine the planet surface.

Thus the vanilla game planet textures are a more recent add-in. Thus it is they who should fit with the Classic Elite goat-soup F7 screen descriptions.

Please correct me if I am wrong.


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Re: Planet Forests and Oceans

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 8:51 am
I feel very strongly that this OXP should be part of the vanilla game code.
Cholmondely wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 8:51 am
Thus the vanilla game planet textures are a more recent add-in. Thus it is they who should fit with the Classic Elite goat-soup F7 screen descriptions.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
I think your reasoning is sound but just a little caution from me.

What assumptions are we making about rainforest and oceans. Could it be that rainforests are green and that oceans are vast?

Even on earth not all trees are green (e.g. red leaves). Under a different star they'd almost certainly look at least a little different both by adaptation and how they were lit. As for oceans, they're not all like the Pacific or Atlantic, but theoretically a planet could have little land mass and yet no oceans.

If it were me, (which it's not - and some may be very glad about that) then I'd have it that 'vast rainforests' = lots of clouds and further that 'unusual oceans' = markedly different colour than blue (but not pink because that's specified in some descriptions).

So does the isinor pic show unusual oceans or does it just display less land mass? In fact, I think I see bigger 'oceans' on the undoctored pic.

That's not the point of course, the point is COULD the description relate to the texture? If, as in phkb's original example, you have vast rain forests but almost no land mass, then yeah, dial down the water a bit.

Anyway, these oxps are a good idea but I'd offer that rainforests are cloudy (otherwise with perlin on every planet looks like a boulder field anyway) and unusual oceans just need to be somewhere, not everywhere.

I've made my case, feel free to dismiss.
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Re: Planet Forests and Oceans

Post by phkb »

Redspear wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 10:22 am
What assumptions are we making about rainforest and oceans. Could it be that rainforests are green and that oceans are vast?
I've been waiting for someone (anyone, really), to have an actual look at my changes to discuss whether they're appropriate. And that hope is still there. I make no great claim to artistic vision in my changes. Any and all changes in the mod are up for discussion.
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Re: Planet Forests and Oceans

Post by Redspear »

phkb wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 11:01 am
I've been waiting for someone (anyone, really), to have an actual look at my changes to discuss whether they're appropriate.
Well, I suppose I count as anyone :P

If you tell me which descriptors you've acted upon (besides 'forests' and 'oceans'), if any, then I can look up suitable systems to check out.
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Re: Planet Forests and Oceans

Post by phkb »

Redspear wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 11:34 am
If you tell me which descriptors you've acted upon (besides 'forests' and 'oceans'), if any, then I can look up suitable systems to check out.
Um....
Well, it was just "forests" and "oceans" actually.

Here's a cut down version of the planetinfo.plist file that makes up the mod. In the original I left blank entries in so that if someone wanted to adjust one of the forest/ocean systems I'm not touching, the info would be close at hand.

Code: Select all

{
    // Tweaks to planet data to make the visual display of the planet
    // match the written description, where the description contains
    // the word "forests"
    // also
    // Tweaks to planet data to make the visual display of the planet
    // match the written description, where the description contains
    // the word "oceans"

    // Galaxy 1 - forests
    "0 1" = { // Qube - great dense
        land_color = "0.229805 0.66 0.199609 1";
        polar_sea_color = "0.997931 0.999297 0.999938 1";
    };
    "0 11" = { // Riinus - vast rain
        cloud_color = "0.767745 0.747452 0.847266 1";
        land_color = "0.328516 0.852142 0.36 1";
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 73;
        percent_land = 52;
    };
    "0 12" = { // Esbiza - vast rain
        land_color = "0.501586 0.96 0.291328 1";
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 81;
        percent_land = 58;
    };
    "0 25" = { // Biisza - vast rain
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 90;
        percent_land = 52;
    };
    "0 61" = { // Learorce - great dense
        land_color = "0.46 0.996875 0.331416 1";
        polar_land_color = "0.534 0.780766 0.488509 1";
    };
    "0 70" = { // Regeatge - great dense
        percent_land = 61;
    };
    "0 110" = { // Erbiti - great dense
        land_color = "0.488397 0.993984 0.56 1";
    };
    "0 143" = { // Anbeen - great tropical
        land_color = "0.66 0.931641 0.641611 1";
    };
    "0 151" = { // Ceesxe - vast rain
        land_color = "0.635045 0.96 0.203672 1";
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 88;
        percent_land = 59;
    };
    "0 161" = { // Veale - vast dense
        land_color = "0.387468 0.83902 0.539062 1";
        percent_land = 55;
        polar_land_color = "0.779579 0.858321 0.746094 1";
    };
    "0 184" = { // Anxeonis - vast rain
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 88;
    };
    "0 188" = { // Tibionis - vast rain
        land_color = "0.564609 0.786221 0.66 1";
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 78;
        percent_land = 67;
        polar_land_color = "0.700252 0.907898 0.734 1";
    };
    "0 218" = { // Anle - great tropical
        land_color = "0.46 0.849688 0.45428 1";
        polar_land_color = "0.834 0.930352 0.831976 1";
    };
    "0 225" = { // Mariar - unusual tropical
        percent_land = 47;
    };
    "0 249" = { // Maxeedso - vast rain
        land_color = "0.549141 0.96 0.641812 1";
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 78;
        percent_land = 57;
    };

    // Galaxy 1 - oceans
    "0 154" = { // Isinor - unusual
        percent_land = 49;
    };

    // Galaxy 2 - forests
    "1 7" = { // Esrilees - unusual tropical
        land_color = "0.929063 0.66 0.841873 1";
    };
    "1 28" = { // Ercetidi - weird tropical
        percent_land = 53;
    };
    "1 64" = { // Tiises - vast rain
        land_color = "0.604611 0.96 0.337734 1";
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 86;
    };
    "1 95" = { // Qualema - unusual tropical
        land_color = "0.528516 0.66 0.956918 1";
        percent_land = 51;
        polar_land_color = "0.887482 0.934 0.99291 1";
    };
    "1 100" = { // Isusle - unusual tropical
        percent_land = 43;
    };
    "1 122" = { // Riedin - unusual tropical
        percent_land = 64;
    };
    "1 138" = { // Levera - vast dense + unusual dense
        percent_land = 60;
    };
    "1 146" = { // Xeisare - unusual tropical
        land_color = "0.638771 0.96 0.980078 1";
    };
    "1 149" = { // Quenle - vast rain + great dense
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 91;
    };
    "1 175" = { // Atragees - great tropical
        land_color = "0.85146 0.86 0.386719 1";
        percent_land = 56;
    };
    "1 194" = { // Tigebere - great tropical
        polar_land_color = "0.813467 0.997656 0.931931 1";
    };
    "1 221" = { // Abege - vast dense
        percent_land = 52;
    };
    "1 224" = { // Maenso - great dense
        percent_land = 59;
    };

    // Galaxy 2 - oceans
    "1 2" = { // Beedbeon - vast
        percent_land = 47;
    };
    "1 31" = { // Zaragete - unusual
        percent_land = 51;
    };
    "1 137" = { // Lainor - pink
        percent_land = 59;
    };
    "1 154" = { // Inisza - unusual
        percent_land = 62;
    };
    "1 203" = { // Cemabe - vast
        percent_land = 50;
    };

    // Galaxy 3 - forests
    "2 9" = { // Usteer - vast rain + great dense
        land_color = "0.64294 0.841953 0.66 1";
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 86;
        percent_land = 55;
        polar_land_color = "0.927964 0.997615 0.934 1";
    };
    "2 13" = { //Enedza - vast dense
        land_color = "0.649688 0.851782 0.66 1";
        polar_land_color = "0.830352 0.931093 0.834 1";
    };
    "2 64" = { // Xesoon - weird exuberant
        percent_land = 62;
    };
    "2 97" = { // Enata - unusual tropical
        percent_land = 58;
    };
    "2 130" = { // Arusxeve - vast dense
        percent_land = 51;
    };
    "2 140" = { // Esmaonbe - weird exuberant
        land_color = "0.841406 0.629425 0.66 1";
        percent_land = 63;
    };
    "2 158" = { // Erinain - vast rain + great dense
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 87;
        percent_land = 68;
    };
    "2 173" = { // Orreen - great tropical
        percent_land = 59;
    };
    "2 192" = { // Artiat - great dense
        percent_land = 49;
    };

    // Galaxy 4 - forests
    "3 6" = { // Edbedi - vast rain
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 92;
        percent_land = 55;
    };
    "3 36" = { // Rilaan - great dense
        percent_land = 52;
    };
    "3 41" = { // Isqueder - unusual dense
        percent_land = 54;
        polar_land_color = "0.899083 0.534 0.670152 1";
    };
    "3 57" = { // Raeddi - vast rain
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 84;
    };
    "3 126" = { // Laqusoed - vast rain
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 81;
    };
    "3 137" = { // Abilama - great dense
        land_color = "0.705859 0.458435 0.481777 1";
        percent_land = 61;
    };
    "3 201" = { // Anrebeis - unusual dense
    };
    "3 255" = { // Enanar - great dense
        land_color = "0.632812 0.910565 0.543823 1";
    };

    // Galaxy 4 - oceans
    "3 16" = { // Onzaenve - vast
        percent_land = 53;
    };
    "3 179" = { // Anxeadi - unusual
        percent_land = 42;
    };

    // Galaxy 5 - forests
    "4 14" = { // Arbe - great dense
        percent_land = 55;
    };
    "4 51" = { // Esenma - great dense
        land_color = "0.634219 0.86 0.646102 1";
        polar_land_color = "0.924879 0.994 0.929083 1";
    };
    "4 73" = { // Onrace - unusual tropical
        percent_land = 49;
    };
    "4 89" = { // Bizalein - vast rain
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 90;
        percent_land = 54;
    };
    "4 116" = { // Ceinan - unusual dense
        percent_land = 60;
    };
    "4 160" = { // Anisat - vast dense
        percent_land = 50;
    };
    "4 197" = { // Bereed - great tropical
        land_color = "0.654297 0.858972 0.495834 1";
    };
    "4 198" = { // Xevera - vast rain
        land_color = "0.60167 0.86 0.193359 1";
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 80;
        percent_land = 51;
    };
    "4 207" = { // Anbiat - unusual dense
        percent_land = 56;
    };

    // Galaxy 5 - oceans
    "4 211" = { // Maeser - vast
        percent_land = 39;
    };
    "4 255" = { // Cetiisqu - vast
        percent_land = 41;
    };

    // Galaxy 6 - forests
    "5 20" = { // Aqutebi - vast dense
        percent_land = 52;
    };
    "5 93" = { // Anorxe - vast dense
        percent_land = 53;
    };
    "5 130" = { // Erisonin - unusual tropical
        percent_land = 47;
    };

    // Galaxy 6 - oceans
    "5 153" = { // Reriarti - vast
        percent_land = 39;
    };

    // Galaxy 7 - forests
    "6 97" = { // Soinsoan - unusual tropical
        percent_land = 46;
    };
    "6 134" = { // Erbieder - vast dense
        percent_land = 59;
    };
    "6 137" = { // Atlaeser - vast dense
        percent_land = 52;
    };
    "6 184" = { // Zarausxe - great tropical
        land_color = "0.66 0.853281 0.64582 1";
    };
    "6 189" = { // Isdilaon - great dense
        percent_land = 55;
    };
    "6 217" = { // Anquarle - weird tropical
        percent_land = 54;
    };

    // Galaxy 7 - oceans
    "6 42" = { // Reesvere - unusual
        percent_land = 45;
    };
    "6 61" = { // Isanesle - vast
        percent_land = 43;
    };

    // Galaxy 8 - forests
    "7 3" = { // Leatanre - vast dense
        percent_land = 62;
    };
    "7 39" = { // Aedis - great tropical
        percent_land = 61;
    };
    "7 42" = { // Edandi - unusual dense
        percent_land = 57;
    };
    "7 65" = { // Rebite - vast dense
        percent_land = 63;
    };
    "7 164" = { // Diquus - vast rain
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 89;
        percent_land = 58;
    };
    "7 230" = { // Raaed - vast rain
        // as much cloud as we can
        cloud_alpha = 1.0;
        cloud_color = "1.0 1.0 1.0 1";
        cloud_fraction = 1.000;
        percent_cloud = 86;
        percent_land = 53;
    };
    "7 242" = { // Laxerive - unusual tropical
        percent_land = 50;
    };
    "7 254" = { // Orleso - great tropical
        percent_land = 49;
    };

    // Galaxy 8 - oceans
    "7 199" = { // Mageesti - vast
        percent_land = 30;
    };
    "7 221" = { // Dienve - vast
        percent_land = 39;
    };
    // Qurixean - unusual
    "7 229" = { // Beorsora - unusual
        percent_land = 42;
    };
}
Is that enough info to work with?
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Re: Planet Forests and Oceans

Post by Redspear »

phkb wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 11:46 am
Um....
Well, it was just "forests" and "oceans" actually.
:D It looks like you've distinguished between the forest types as well.

From just a quick scan of the code...

Looks like the main changes are to land colour, percentage of cloud and percentage of land.

Further looks like with land colour you've upped the green for forests; for percentage cloud you've upped it for rain forests; and for percentage land you've decreased it for oceans.

Some thoughts:


Land Colour

Upping the G of RGB will obviously make things more green but instead, how about reducing the B instead? My biology is a bit rusty here but most leaves are green because they're targeting the light from the red end of the spectrum (green/red in 'opposition') light from other parts of the spectrum.

In theory, it could be almost any wavelength but we all live on earth (right?) and so we all intuitively expect green. But red, brown, orange, yellow leaves, we've all seen those too but not so many blue ones. Blue is intuitively sky/water (even though neither is actually blue but I think you get my point).

So decrease the blue and we nudge things towards not so much what might be expected but rather might what be accepted by the human eye.


Percentage Land

This is a bit tricky. The only way to be sure that you have something even resembling distinct oceans would be to set this pretty low but that doesn't prevent the production of lots of island chains breaking it all up into many relatively small bodies of water.

Short of checking them all individually, maybe drop it down whenever it exceeds 50% (for the sake of variance, you could 'flip' the land/sea bias e.g. 75% land become 75% water). Whether that results in significant oceans or not, there would be a noticeable presence of water (or whatever), at least on the more rapidly rotating F7 depiction of the planet.

The difference between an ocean and a sea isn't immediately obvious anyway and maybe interchangeable use has become the norm c. 3100.


Percentage Clouds

If it doesn't already, then this should correlate with percentage water (or inversely with percentage land).
Large water bodies are likely to produce more evaporation than large bodies of land.

Rain forests would produce a lot of rain (and to a lesser degree so might forests generally) but its the water from the trees causing that and so large bodies of water tend to evaporate even more. Most worlds are inhabited by human colonials (and all by earth-like soecies) so I'd expect that to be true re temperature etc.

So yeah, up it for all of them. For forests a bit, for rain forests a lot and for vast oceans as much as you can bear.

Hope that helps.
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Re: Planet Forests and Oceans

Post by Cholmondely »

Wiki page finally up: https://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Plane ... and_Oceans

And linkes updated on the "Guide to Ambience OXPs"/"User:Phkb pages" (I don't think that the OXP is explicitly mentioned anywhere else).
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