(WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

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Redspear
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Redspear »

Wikipedia has this to say:
Although anarchy is often negatively used as a synonym of chaos or societal collapse or anomie, this is not the meaning that anarchists attribute to anarchy, a society without hierarchies.
So for it to be overtaken by 'anarchists', are they the anarchists that already 'run' the system trying to remove GalCop's influence or ane they brigands wishing for true lawlessness.

A non-herarchical system being the most dangerous of the lot could be taken to be the vulnerability of some non-hierarchical systems towards more competitive systems or to be indicative of societal collapse... or Bell & Braben's dig at more liberal minded schools of thought as in their humour at arts graduates' expense.

IMHO, 'societal collapse' is the simplest interpretation but also the least interesting. To be fair, it's probably also the most likely.
Elite manual wrote:
ANARCHY PLANETS

A trader can make his biggest profits here and reach his grave the quickest. Worlds like Onisou and Xeesenri have vast wreck-yards in far orbit, the dead places of ships that came to trade honestly, and fell prey to trickery.

These are lawless places, and have usually become so because the original settlers completed too hard when there was too little resource material. Those worlds which survived holocaust did so because of uneasy and bloody alliances between clan families. Pirates and mercenaries were hired for protection and assassination purposes. Anarchic worlds will trade readily in narcotics, slaves, firearms and exotica, and the price will be good... if you get a price at all. These worlds are almost always supplying invisible Masters, usually elite trader/combateers who have turned to crime as the most profitable way of life. Such form loose federations, and trade on the black market extensively throughout the galaxies.

These worlds pay highly for goods they cannot produce themselves, because they know that traders avoid them. Their own products need specialized, illegal outlets: weaponry, narcotics, eavesdropping devices... if it's covert, then anarchic worlds are producing it. Trade in these items and you will get rich quick, or dead quick, or at least become a "Fugitive".
Wreck-yards anybody?
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Cholmondely »

If you are interested, Hull University Press (through JM Dent & sons) published an excellent series of books on "Modern Ideologies" back in the 1980s. That on Anarchism (David Miller, 1985) treated various versions of left- and right-wing anarchism with a fascinating survey of the various failures to establish anarchist communities over the the previous century. (Their volume on Fascism provides the only realistic insight I ever found into why so many thoughtful people were fascist before WW2.)

As you state, the anarchies in Oolite are not these ideological utopias.

But. Lestradae installed Ascension as a TL16 anarchy (and heralded by such as Diziet Sma). It now survives in Famous Planets OXP (used to be Sori - TL9 dictatorship).

See Split: Anarchy in the Oolite universe (2014) for a bit more on utopian anarchies.
Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Cholmondely »

Wreck yards would be good. Really good. We have Murgh's Rusties...

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Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Sep 10, 2023 6:04 pm
If you are interested...
Thanks.
Cholmondely wrote: Sun Sep 10, 2023 6:04 pm
See Split: Anarchy in the Oolite universe
Dizzy's argument re the "parasites that be" disrupt anarchies wherever they form is one I've heard before re communism etc.
That said, if we assume for the moment that he's correct then there's your reason for conflict/piracy/danger right there.
Societal collapse or obstructing utopia; if you're heading to the station, maybe it's hard to tell the difference.

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Sep 10, 2023 6:07 pm
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Love the Boa add :lol:
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Cholmondely »

This really belongs in this thread
Cholmondely wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 1:23 pm
Proposed Eschatology


Backdrop:

GalCop's general loss of control as Thargoid & Pirate attacks increase and funding cut as trade lessens and systems stop paying them so much dosh.



Future History:

1) Current Anarchy Coriolis

2) Redspear's "Solo" ProtoCoriolis with burgeoning maintenance issues as GalCop starts to run out of dosh

3) Phkb's captured Coriolis controlled by pirates (pretty picture)

4) Coriolis destroyed by GalCop police and there is now no dosh to rebuild (the Rock Hermit replacement is a laughable travesty - limited markets with profit-destroying prices, crummy shipyard).

5) Then relatively wealthy but defenceless RH also destroyed by pirates/Thargoids.

Thus one ends with Redspear's jaunts down to the planet surface instead. And with pirates wandering over to say "Hello" and make life more interesting!

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Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 1:27 pm
Cholmondely wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 1:23 pm

2) Redspear's "Solo" ProtoCoriolis with burgeoning maintenance issues as GalCop starts to run out of dosh
To be clear/fair, it was Capt Solo's station (thus the name), I just packaged it and added some context.

Back on topic: Elite used government type to define danger and explicity danger to the player. As a citizen, many places would likely be very safe if you opted to fall in line.

Democracies can have demonstrations, sometimes with a risk of violence. Meanwhile in a nearby dictatorship, demonstrations are ruthlessly oppressed (for your convenience) so that the law-abiding citizen doesn't have to deal with unsightly windows being smashed or the annoyance of traffic being disrupted.

So some places are safer to be 'yourself' while others are safer to be a 'good citizen'. Anachies arguably should be safe in both regards but without advocating force or strong control, would likely be especially vulnerable to pirates.

What does anarchy mean Jim lad?

Well sir, it's from the Greek sir...

Yes?... Out with it lad, out with it!

Er, it means without rulers sir.

Without rulers eh?... Get me them charts boy. We're a headed to Riedquat!

Should anarchy systems even have police?

Should they instead be more the realm of bounty hunters, be they hired, rewarded or volunteers?
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Cholmondely »

Redspear wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:52 pm
Cholmondely wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 1:27 pm
Cholmondely wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 1:23 pm

2) Redspear's "Solo" ProtoCoriolis with burgeoning maintenance issues as GalCop starts to run out of dosh
To be clear/fair, it was Capt Solo's station (thus the name), I just packaged it and added some context.
Utter codswallop.

You took simple (even boring) station retextures and turned them into stations with "personality". Very different from just "adding a little content".
Redspear wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:52 pm
Back on topic: Elite used government type to define danger and explicity danger to the player. As a citizen, many places would likely be very safe if you opted to fall in line.

Democracies can have demonstrations, sometimes with a risk of violence. Meanwhile in a nearby dictatorship, demonstrations are ruthlessly oppressed (for your convenience) so that the law-abiding citizen doesn't have to deal with unsightly windows being smashed or the annoyance of traffic being disrupted.

So some places are safer to be 'yourself' while others are safer to be a 'good citizen'. Anachies arguably should be safe in both regards but without advocating force or strong control, would likely be especially vulnerable to pirates.

What does anarchy mean Jim lad?

Well sir, it's from the Greek sir...

Yes?... Out with it lad, out with it!

Er, it means without rulers sir.

Without rulers eh?... Get me them charts boy. We're a headed to Riedquat!

Should anarchy systems even have police?

Should they instead be more the realm of bounty hunters, be they hired, rewarded or volunteers?
The understanding about anarchy systems (propagated inter alia by Commander McLean, author of the Anarchies OXP) is that the Anarchies are messes which do nothing. GalCop polices the anarchies and makes a loss doing so. Hence the feeble/reduced police forces in anarchies (GalCop has to pay for it all itself. In Corporates, the Corporates chip in and pay for most/all of the policing, so there is a decent police presence there). And hence my earlier assumption that Viper Interceptors would not be found in anarchies.

Possibly, the anarchies used not to be such. They might have once been proper states. But with the Thargoid invasions, the rise of piracy and the general increase in lawlessness and disorder, some of the poorer states either fell into civil war or were subverted by the pirates and ended up as the lawless anarchies we see today.

(Cue Oolite's lore: "The two thousand star systems of the Cooperative once enjoyed a golden age of peace and prosperity, and perhaps the wealthiest of them can still pretend to. The trade ships that once safely travelled between planets now have to be well armed and escorted to fend off pirate attacks, from small-time criminals desperate for their next meal, to powerful robber barons extracting tithes from everyone who passes through their space.

The Cooperative's police force, concentrated near a few influential planets, can no longer maintain order. The mercenaries they hire for a few credits a kill are too few, too unreliable to do so either. And in the darkness between the stars, an old enemy lurks, fearless, perhaps waiting for order to collapse entirely."
https://oolite.space/).

I don't think that the various learned tomes on "anarchies/anarchic political philosophy" are the way to view the systems labelled as anarchies on Oolite, which are lawless, pirate-ridden, lethal dens of danger. They are not idealistic places founded by utopian ideologues but once functioning communities which have been kneecapped by evildoers. And now labelled as anarchies by GalCop because they have no functioning government to help police the solar system and pay their tithes to GalCop for services rendered.

And that is probably why when Lestradae generated a utopian anarchy in Sori/Ascension, it became a TL16 system - and if he could have nobbled the high piracy levels, I'm sure that he would have.
Comments wanted:
Missing OXPs? What do you think is missing?
Lore: The economics of ship building How many built for Aronar?
Lore: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual: Cowell & MgRath Do you agree with Redspear?
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Re: (WIP Concept) Anarchy Overhaul

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 9:23 pm
Very different from just "adding a little content".
'ConteXt', although you could be forgiven for thinking it was yet another typo from me :) but thanks.

Cholmondely wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 9:23 pm
The understanding about anarchy systems (propagated inter alia by Commander McLean, author of the Anarchies OXP) is that the Anarchies are messes which do nothing
Yeah, no disrespect intended to the author: the oxp should reflect their vision I think.

Cholmondely wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 9:23 pm
I don't think that the various learned tomes on "anarchies/anarchic political philosophy" are the way to view the systems labelled as anarchies on Oolite, which are lawless, pirate-ridden, lethal dens of danger. They are not idealistic places founded by utopian ideologues but once functioning communities which have been kneecapped by evildoers. And now labelled as anarchies by GalCop because they have no functioning government to help police the solar system and pay their tithes to GalCop for services rendered.
We could argue about how they might have got there but the fact is that they are dangerous systems as you point out. If we accept that (as I do) then it could be an interesting thought experiment to consider how they might have become so rather than the argument as to what they 'should' be.

So I'm considering the how rather more than asking the why, if you like.
For example:
Redspear wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:52 pm
Anachies arguably should be safe in both regards but without advocating force or strong control, would likely be especially vulnerable to pirates.
By 'arguably' I mean that it could be argued rather than I am arguing in this particular direction. So they are both potentially safer (more freedom) but also potentially more dangerous (less control).

Oolite (via it's Elite heritage) has already told us which one of those outcomes it is.
OXPs however can offer us a particular view of how or what exactly that would entail.

Philosophical musings are of course potentially endless so helty pinches of salt recommended.
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