TL (Technology Level)

[Redspear]

Part of this comes down to our understanding of who is responsible for the orbiting Coriolis station

That's true but we're not entirely in the dark on this issue.

Oolite isn't strictly elite, I know, but it's not exactly foreign either...

Coriolis stations were designed at the GASEC (Galactic Astronautic and Space Exploration Center) Laboratories on the planet Vetitice. The first station was in orbit around the world Lave in 2752...
A new dodecahedral design (the so-called "Dodo" stations) is replacing the Coriolis design in the more advanced systems.

So the standardisation of both default and upgraded stations at least suggests GalCop manufacture/distribution...

Coriolis stations are "neutral" territory, controlled equally by GalCop and the Planetary Government.

...and explicitly it is both GalCop and planetary/system territory; which would make sense if it really is a GalCop police force...

police Vipers (the ships of the GalCop Police Force)

...which it apparently is.

Is it GalCop, and if so, are they limited to only employing local residents on ship services? An example of this is Mr Gimlet, who is not a native of Lave, yet is the Dock Master on the Lave Coriolis. Or is the GalCop logo more of a licensing arrangement, like a franchise, where GalCop provide the base equipment, but everything else is local. If the former, then the TL on the station has no direct relationship with the TL of the planet. Any difference is one of policy, not of ability. If the latter, then, yes, the TL of the station will match the TL of the planet (or thereabouts).

The above would, I think, suggest (if "controlled") that neither of the scenarios you describe would be representative.

[Disembodied]

To what extent is "GalCop" an actual entity? Like the UN, it could be just the sum of its members - i.e. the 2,000-odd worlds across the Eight. Is "The Co-operative" anything more than a bunch of inter-system treaties, standards, and conventions covering interstellar trade, stapled together with a very rudimentary legal code?

[Redspear]

To what extent is "GalCop" an actual entity? Like the UN, it could be just the sum of its members - i.e. the 2,000-odd worlds across the Eight. Is "The Co-operative" anything more than a bunch of inter-system treaties, standards, and conventions covering interstellar trade, stapled together with a very rudimentary legal code?

Your kills are photographed and transmitted by TS ComDirect to the nearest GalCop Federal Law Center

Pirates exist everywhere in the galaxy, but cluster mainly around unstable GalCop worlds

In a Co-operative of Worlds as complex as the 2040 planets f the GalCop, the police can be as menacing as they can be helpful.

A ship's computer will transmit photographic evidence of any kill to the GalCop Bank Federation Monitoring Authority

That would suggest a federation I think... and would give sufficient leeway for the different government types.

It is often argued that federal states where the central government has overriding powers are not truly federal states. For example, such overriding powers may include: the constitutional authority to suspend a constituent state's government by invoking gross mismanagement or civil unrest, or to adopt national legislation that overrides or infringes on the constituent states' powers by invoking the central government's constitutional authority to ensure "peace and good government" or to implement obligations contracted under an international treaty.

The fact that the stations are 'neutral territory' might be interpreted as excluding "overriding powers". So according to the above GalCop could be seen as a true federation... whatever that means

[Cholmondely]

There is also the Vanilla game question of orbital stations in anarchies. If Galcop does not pay for them who does?

The understanding I've generated in a year of scrutinizing the wiki, the canon (such as it is) and the material here on the BB is that GalCop is weak. Too weak to control the pirates without help (ie extra funding for viper patrols in Corporate states), too weak to prevent sporadic Thargoid incursions. One presumes that it was stronger in the past (when it was funding/helping fund orbitals at what are now anarchies), but this is presumption.

On the other hand, it does support a police force - even in anarchies, as well as maintaining the orbital stations with whatever financial support it can muster.

(Only if one includes Galactic Navy amongst one's suite of OXPs does GalCop seem to acquire some muscle. But even then there are questions. Who pays for the Galactic Navy? Who determines what it does? Can the President of GalCop tell the Navy to bomb the living daylights out of Riedquat? Will actually it do so if he/she/it does? No idea!)

What makes most sense to me personally is a GalCop in decline, able to do less and less. But that's just what makes most sense to me.

This also gives space for players to make a real difference if somebody can write the necessary OXPs. We probably need other OXPs first, allowing more significant interactions with NPCs and maybe some extra-vehicular activity on orbital stations and planet surfaces too.

[Redspear]

There is also the Vanilla game question of orbital stations in anarchies. If Galcop does not pay for them who does?

Every world registered with the Galactic Co-operative has several Coriolis space stations in orbit at various altitudes

I think GalCop does, at least in part.

The understanding I've generated in a year of scrutinizing the wiki, the canon (such as it is) and the material here on the BB is that GalCop is weak. Too weak to control the pirates without help (ie extra funding for viper patrols in Corporate states), too weak to prevent sporadic Thargoid incursions. One presumes that it was stronger in the past (when it was funding/helping fund orbitals at what are now anarchies), but this is presumption.

Don't forget the bounty hunters!
But your presumption is not unreasonable:

Pirates exist everywhere in the galaxy, but cluster mainly around unstable GalCop worlds, especially worlds run on a feudal or anarchic system.

The Elite Manual isn't eveything of course but it was the canonical grounding for this very game I believe.

(Only if one includes Galactic Navy amongst one's suite of OXPs does GalCop seem to acquire some muscle

Have you tried taking on an interceptor squadron lately?

What makes most sense to me personally is a GalCop in decline, able to do less and less. But that's just what makes most sense to me.

Again, not baseless whether from the oolite website itself or from the original source material:

The slave trade, once almost eliminated by the Galactic government is now returning, despite the efforts of the Galactic Police Force to suppress it.

The Cooperative's police force, concentrated near a few influential planets, can no longer maintain order. The mercenaries they hire for a few credits a kill are too few, too unreliable to do so either. And in the darkness between the stars, an old enemy lurks, fearless, perhaps waiting for order to collapse entirely.

Perhaps predictably, I prefer the former, more understated quote but then the latter does make for a much more enticing blurb...


Next time I should perhaps just link to the elite manual itself rather than repeatedly quoting it

[Cholmondely]

Every world registered with the Galactic Co-operative has several Coriolis space stations in orbit at various altitudes

... The Elite Manual isn't everything of course but it was the canonical grounding for this very game I believe.

Ummmm... So in the The Space Traders Flight Training Manual (mostly by Holdstock) this quote is on page 16. In the Elite Player's Guide (purely B&B but unfinished) it says this:

Each planet has a few Coriolis Class space stations in orbit around it. These are used as cargo transition points between interplanetary trading vessels and the planet's surface-orbit shuttle craft. They also provide entertainment and lodging for those star pilots who do not have the time or inclination to go "planet-side".

Also of relevance from the Elite Player's Guide:

...for, in these days of Galactic anarchy, each planetary system is a law unto itself...
...
TRADING

The main source of income for brave but honest starship owners is the plying of the interstellar space routes, taking advantage of the food shortages on heavily industrialised planets, for instance, by selling them food bought cheaply on nearby agricutural planets. However, because of the recent decline in the Galactic Government, piracy is on the increase, and only a few traders dare leave the more secure star systems. For this reason, quite high prices may be paid for supplies.
... to speed the novice on his way to becoming One of the Elite, some average prices are listed below. (These were obtained from the last official Galactic Survey, so are now quite old, but most experienced traders say they are about right.)
...The slave trade, once almost eliminated by the Galactic Government, is now returning, despite the efforts of the Galactic Police Force to suppress it.
...
Bounty Hunting is the most dangerous profession of all. The Galactic Banks, who often insure the larger trading convoys, abhor pirates and will pay a bounty for any pirate ship destroyed.
A ship's computer will transmit photographic evidence of any kill to the planet side branch of one of the major Bank chains. The IR signature of the destroyed ship is then tallied with all known pirate vessels, and if a match is found the pilot's account will be credited.
Bounty hunters usually have Cobra Class ships to masquerade as traders. They simply hyperspace into a system (typically an anarchy) and wait to be attacked, ensuring that they have sufficent hyperspace fuel for a quick escape.
...
VIPER PATROL SHIP
This is the standard ship used by the Galactic Police Force. Being fairly small, it carries only one missile, but is very fast. The police force are not directly associated with the space stations, but are an independent agency, financed by the rapidly collapsing Galactic Government. Their main aim is to prevent trading in items still declared illegal by this Galactic Government, but they are being ignored in these rebellious days, even by most space stations, since a great deal of profit can be made from trading in such goods. They will try to come to their comrades' assistance if they are attacked, and will reap their revenge on a ship that destroys one of their own.
...
PRESSURISED CARGO CANISTER
For many years these chromalloy canisters have been used to store cargo during space flights. They hold approximately a tonne of goods kept under standard atmospheric pressure (as defined by the ancient Galactic Government), and can withstand even the roughest handling in star-bases.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Have you tried taking on an interceptor squadron lately?

Help!? What's this? The only ship's I've knowingly downloaded are your FdL, the Star Destroyer and the Miner's Cobra (admittedly Commies, Dictators etc also have ships when I add them in). What is an interceptor squadron? Something from Mandotech Inc?

Next time I should perhaps just link to the elite manual itself rather than repeatedly quoting it

Disagree. The text is valuable and a useful reminder.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So where do we go from here?

There is what the canonical sources say. But that is not enough for all of us. Cody started playing Elite without ever seeing any of the material (fiction, Manuals or anything else). And I wonder to what extent the doughty and doubtful Disembodied will be persuaded by any of this either.

Next is common sense. Who does pay for Orbital Stations in anarchies? Inexistent anarchic governments? Multimillionaire businessmen on the planet surface? The Corporate government 5 light years away?
Well... not the inexistent anarchic government for one! And if the multimillionaire businessman, then why does every single anarchy station without exception treat slaves/narcotics/firearms as illegal substances? And if the corporate next door, why have they not stamped out piracy. What effect do they think their piddling police patrols really have? This to me argues convincingly for GalCop, ... but wait! Our Supreme Exponent of the Serene Science of Handwavium has yet to fully demonstrate his prowess...

[Cody]

What is an interceptor squadron

One assumes you mean GalCop Viper Interceptors - usually to be found in squads of five.

[Redspear]

What is an interceptor squadron

One assumes you mean GalCop Viper Interceptors - usually to be found in squads of five.

I know that's what I meant. Five military lasers pointed at you at any one time is not to be sniffed at...

Ummmm... So in the The Space Traders Flight Training Manual (mostly by Holdstock) this quote is on page 16. In the Elite Player's Guide (purely B&B but unfinished) it says this:

Well firstly Holdstock was published and based upon earlier work by Bell in particular. Secondly I don't see your point; mine was that GalCop were clearly invested in the stations, yours is... that they don't pay for the shuttles???

As a trade hub they don't need to pay for transport, they just need to attract it. Shuttles will be employed by either traders or middle men to get a slice of the action, merchants should be queing up to make such an investment/trade regardless of government type. If an individual trader can't afford the investment then they can team up until they can (there's a fair bit of cargo capacity in those shuttles).

Anarchy means no formal government, right? Not no cooperation. So instead of dealing with one or several bodies (multi-gov) GalCop would be dealing with numerous individuals/organisations. More complicated, likely harder to police but principally no different in terms of their role I think, just a microcosm of their larger galactic modus operandi.

So where do we go from here?

There is what the canonical sources say. But that is not enough for all of us. Cody started playing Elite without ever seeing any of the material (fiction, Manuals or anything else). And I wonder to what extent the doughty and doubtful Disembodied will be persuaded by any of this either.

Next is common sense. Who does pay for Orbital Stations in anarchies? Inexistent anarchic governments? Multimillionaire businessmen on the planet surface? The Corporate government 5 light years away?
Well... not the inexistent anarchic government for one!

Likely round and round in circles.

If we're prepared to override canonical sources or disagree about what's canonical in the first place (and it's not for me to say that anyone can't or shouldn't) then it's all a matter of personal opinion/interpretation.

Otherwise, I could just produce a short piece of fan fic that royally screws up any particular rationale at the drop of a hat assuming anyone thinks it's interesting enough to want to incorporate it.

A bit simplistic but perhaps serviceable is this: he who chases two rabbits catches none.

If that's how you get your kicks then don't let me stop you but the gaps and mysteries you're trying to answer have I suspect been answered/assumed/dismissed many times by many people with almost as many different results (...well, multiple different results at least).

Your answer is certainly achievable, the answer is perhaps not.

[Cholmondely]

So where do we go from here?

Likely round and round in circles.

I thought that I'd been agreeing with you and bringing supplementary sources which also proved the point.

If we're prepared to override canonical sources or disagree about what's canonical in the first place (and it's not for me to say that anyone can't or shouldn't) then it's all a matter of personal opinion/interpretation.

Otherwise, I could just produce a short piece of fan fic that royally screws up any particular rationale at the drop of a hat assuming anyone thinks it's interesting enough to want to incorporate it.

A bit simplistic but perhaps serviceable is this: he who chases two rabbits catches none.

If that's how you get your kicks then don't let me stop you but the gaps and mysteries you're trying to answer have I suspect been answered/assumed/dismissed many times by many people with almost as many different results (...well, multiple different results at least).

Your answer is certainly achievable, the answer is perhaps not.

So, what I'm up to is this. Two points.

1) come up with an analysis of TL which makes sense in the context of both the game code and the literature. And which keeps you and I happy (ie it fits with the lore) and which also keeps Cody and Disembodied happy. If we can manage that, there should not be too many discontents... and we should manage to elucidate something useful for others in the future.

2) Resulting from this come up with some intelligent analysis for the TL requirements which Phkb has incorporated into his Hermitage oxp.

[Cody]

Five military lasers pointed at you at any one time is not to be sniffed at...

They certainly have the firepower to hurt you, and speed - but they can't take too much punishment.
It's an old gripe of mine - Vipers and Interceptors need some toughening!

[Redspear]

I thought that I'd been agreeing with you and bringing supplementary sources which also proved the point.

Likely you were - as I said, I couldn't see your point clearly.

So, what I'm up to is this. Two points.

1) come up with an analysis of TL which makes sense in the context of both the game code and the literature. And which keeps you and I happy (ie it fits with the lore) and which also keeps Cody and Disembodied happy. If we can manage that, there should not be too many discontents... and we should manage to elucidate something useful for others in the future.

2) Resulting from this come up with some intelligent analysis for the TL requirements which Phkb has incorporated into his Hermitage oxp.

1) Don't worry about making me happy on this one. I very much appreciate the sentiment but I don't think it's worth it. I'm fussy, quirky and appreciate nuances/vagaries that others seem to find infuriating.

I can't fault the rationality of Disembodied's take of having/preferring TL1 to be essentially stone age (apologies if I'm misremembering/misrepresenting here) rather I just find it a bit too extreme for my tastes. My approach is to identify to my tastes/understanding/preference and then think how to make such a thing logical.

For example:

Of the 2040 officially registered planets in the GalCop, all but 45 support human colonies only, that is to say, human presence elsewhere is restricted to settlements in under-populated parts of the land surface.

Trading at such worlds depends, for its success, very much upon the extant state of co-operation between human and alien. Human control the Coriolis stations in orbit, but the availability of items for trade, and their relative expense, can be affected by the controlling life forms.

Most alien life forms are either too primitive, or too glad of off-World trade, to interfere. Some, such as the Reptiloid life form of Esanbe or the Amphibioids of Anbeen, can make a trader's life very difficult, by haggling at the point of a laser.

The underlined parts are not to my taste and were I suspect added to justify the lack of variance within Elite - to explain a lack of gameplay rather than imagine more. As such it directly contradicts my (still yet to be completed, damn my tardiness...) Station Variation oxp. I'm perfectly OK with that because I like it and have (as far as I can see) a no less reasonable rationale to explain how my take might be reasonable. As an oxp it only has to satisfy those who like the idea (of the oxp) and not those who don't.


2) Intelligent? I'm not making any promises

As for phkb's oxp, I wouldn't want to compromise his design in order to make me happy with it. I'll regularly suggest ideas for people's oxps which are sometimes ignored/dismissed. No problem: if the writer doesn't want to go there then why should they?

Anyway, I might have made your goal easier by specifying that you don't need to worry about making me happy

They certainly have the firepower to hurt you, and speed - but they can't take too much punishment.
It's an old gripe of mine - Vipers and Interceptors need some toughening!

Fair point but that's one of the issues with the laser model: military lasers are too good* for tough ships when those ships are to be up against both the player (military and tough but singular) as well as non-players (military or tough because otherwise the game's crushingly difficult).

* Your mileage may vary of course but the player typically starts 'pulse and (not very) tough' and the gap between beam and military is significant to say the least.

[Cholmondely]

As for phkb's oxp, I wouldn't want to compromise his design in order to make me happy with it. I'll regularly suggest ideas for people's oxps which are sometimes ignored/dismissed. No problem: if the writer doesn't want to go there then why should they?

Totally agree.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Conclusions so far

•TL of planet is not the same as TL of the orbital station.
Caveat:

Maybe GalCop as a whole is TL 15 but the engineering standard and facilities vary enormously from system to system. If a TL 15 planet is the equivalent of a space navy 'dry dock' then maybe TL 1 is just a few guys with a welder. They might know how all your tech works but, coriolis station or not, maybe they just don't have the reserves of either the man/woman/lobster/frog/etc. power or equipment beyond servicing their own police force.

•TL table of Disembodied/Traveller feels a bit awkward (a tad too primitive?) but can be accommodated. It is crypto-canonical.

•How powerful is GalCop? (relevant for divergence in orbital station TL from planet TL, although the idea that the TL1 Sumeria of Hammurabi could support an orbital station is somewhat ineffable).
Ongoing debate: Disembodied (a feeble collection of planets issuing laws which almost everyone ignores and which it can't enforce, and which probably has no finance to pay for the vipers) vs Canon (originally provided Orbital stations and still pays to maintain them and their viper fleets in anarchies, ensures orbitals treat narcotics/slaves/firearms as illegal) and vs logic based on game code (who else does this?).
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So where next, gentlefolks?

1) We could try and redefine the TL to something with less emphasis on iron age technological distinctions. Define 2021 planet earth as having a lower TL than just 7.

2) What about Hermitage.oxp? Can we make sense out of 6 levels of Life Support System requiring a minimum TL of between 1 to 11. Or 6 varieties of fuel reserves requiring a TL of 1. 6 types of (mineral?) refinery need machinery from a world of TL2+ up to TL 11+?

What would a Life support system from a TL of 1 actually be? Or do we say that it is from an Orbital station circling a planet with a TL of 1 - which seems reasonable if misleading.

I 'm not convinced that sorting out (2) requires sorting out (1)

Reference: http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Hermitage

[phkb]

What about Hermitage.oxp? Can we make sense out of 6 levels of Life Support System requiring a minimum TL of between 1 to 11. Or 6 varieties of fuel reserves requiring a TL of 1. 6 types of (mineral?) refinery need machinery from a world of TL2+ up to TL 11+?

This assumes I had some detailed plan in place for choosing a particular TL for each level of equipment. It could actually be that (and keep this on the quiet, I don't want it to get out) maybe I just selected an increasing TL based on increasing functionality/reliability and wanted to spread out the availability of equipment, and that's as complicated as it got! Part of what I wanted to do was to force the player to go away from their Hermitage system to get higher-level resources, and by giving a quality rating to resources based on the source TL, that seemed like the easiest fit (without completely rewriting the commodities market).

That said, I'm totally up for reworking all the TL's in Hermitage. I'm totally up for anyone wanting to engage with what I've created and partnering with me on improving the logic/meaningfulness/scope of it.

[Cholmondely]

Phkb's inspired work on his Hermitage OXP has led me to think about what the TLs really mean.

1) My starting point is Disembodied's post here:

One more idea that could be super immersive: the amount of city lights could depend on the type of economy, so that rich industrial countries have much more lights (and perhaps more complex structures) than poor agricultural ones. Feudal planets could have the light disabled altogether!

Definitely - economy, tech level and population size could all influence the city lights. In Galaxy 1, Maesin is a Poor Agricultural, TL1, population 0.8 billion; Ceesxe is a Rich Industrial, TL15, population 6.4 billion. Their night sides would look very different!

Maybe city lights shouldn't appear at all until (say) TL3 or 4? Using Traveller as a guide, TL0-3 is classed as the "Very Low Technology Epoch", using stone, wood, basic metals, dray beasts, sails, water wheels, and the first steam engines. TL4-6 is the "Low Technology Epoch", with early atomic science, the first factories, internal combustion engines, and increasingly destructive military technologies. TL7-9 is the "Middle Technology Epoch", possessing increasingly advanced technologies including space travel, advanced computers, and increasingly dense cities (I'd estimate that present-day Earth is maybe TL7).

My analysis of this:
TL0 = Sundials, waterclocks, irrigation systems
TL1 = Roman engineering?
TL2 = Medieval Clockwork (Exeter cathedral clock)
TL 3 = Georgian period (Industrial Revolution) - canals, railways, excellent clockwork (Abraham-Louis Breguet)
TL 4 = Victorian period
TL 5 = WW1 technology
TL 6 = WW2 technology
TL7 = 1960s onwards

2) Now let's add in Elite/Oolite information:

Information from the Vanilla Game:
TL1 orbital stations sell Fuel (Oolite quirium fuel may be horrendously explosive. But classic Elite fuel?)
TL2 orbital stations sell Missiles & Cargo Bay Expansions
TL3 orbital stations sell E.C.M.
TL 4 orbital stations sell Pulse Lasers
TL 5 orbital stations sell Beam Lasers & External Heat Shielding
TL 6 orbital stations sell Fuel Scoops. Multi-Targeting Systems & Passenger Berths are new, after Elite
TL 7 orbital stations sell Escape Pods. Advanced Navigational Arrays, Quirium Cascade Mines and the Maintenance Overhaul are new to Oolite
TL 8 orbital stations sell the Advanced Space Compass (new to Oolite)
TL 9 orbital stations sell Extra Energy Units. The Target System Memory Expansions is new to Oolite.
TL 10 orbital stations sell Docking Computers. ECM Hardened Missiles & Wormhole Scanners are new to Oolite.
TL 11 orbital stations sell Galactic Hyperdrives, Military Lasers, Mining Lasers. Shield Boosters & Witchdrive Fuel Injectors are new to Oolite.
TL 12 orbital stations sell Scanner Targeting Enhancements & Integrated Targeting Systems (both Oolite).
TL 14 orbital stations sell Military Shield Enhancements (Oolite only).

Sources: The Space Traders Flight Training Manual (Classic Elite - BBC version only), Wiki page on Oolite Equipment.

3) Initial thoughts on the above.
The two lists are utterly discordant. In Traveller TL 3 can at best manage the dreadfully inaccurate clock in Exeter cathedral. In Elite/Oolite, TL3 can sell you a ECM.

But, the bottom list is only the orbital station. On the one hand the orbital station must have electricity and electricians, engineers and high technology in order to run. And the orbital stations are installed and run by GalCop and possibly subsidised by the system's government. So they do not necessarily reflect the TL of the planet. Ceesxe (TL15) may enable installation of equipment in its orbital which Maesin & Qudira (TL1) can't in theirs.

I cannot see the TL1 of Maesin as being the TL of Maesin's Orbital station.

This does not answer the question of why one can't buy imported Lasers at Maesin. I would suggest that this is due to the constraints of 8-bit Elite and the wish to vary the Galaxies and make the game fun. Which does not help us, playing Oolite. We will need handwavium to explain this away (GalCop policy, Maesin's policy (anarchies don't have such things) etc).

4) Initial conclusion.
An orbital station cannot meaningfully have a TL of 1. The orbital TL is independent of the planet it orbits.

This leads to issues over how to address the difference between planet and orbital.

Just to add in to this

The Lore from Classic Elite about which ships are built where.

Eg:

Reorte: TL6! - no Extra Energy Units or Escape pods available (Elite), no maintenance overhaul available (Oolite), "WWII technology" spelled out above!
Government: Dictatorship, Economy: Poor Agricultural, Population: 3.1 Billion (Black Fat Felines)

Mamba (The Space Traders Flight Training Manual, p57) - built at Reorte
Viper (ditto, p61, under InService date) - first built at Reorte as above

Lave: TL5! - no fuel scoops or passenger berths available (Elite), "WWI technology" spelled out above!
Government: Dictatorship, Economy: Rich Agricultural, Population: 2.5 Billion (Human Colonials)

Cobra Mk.III (The Space Traders Flight Training Manual, p56) - built at Lave

Oops!

We do know that the Manual was mostly written by Holdstock.

But, how do we handwave this sort of thing away?

[Cody]

But, how do we handwave this sort of thing away?

Handwave Holdstock away, he was a fantasist!