<grins> Hmm... a trifle extreme, perhaps, and definitely not for me (I don't deal with WMDs).Norby wrote:Like a timed q-bomb what you must deliver in time, else...Cody wrote:dangerous parcel contracts occasionally available from rock hermits.
Secondary markets
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Cody
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Re: Secondary markets
I would advise stilts for the quagmires, and camels for the snowy hills
And any survivors, their debts I will certainly pay. There's always a way!
And any survivors, their debts I will certainly pay. There's always a way!
Re: Secondary markets
I like this idea very much, particularly if there's a chance that by accepting certain contracts of this sort, you won't get jumped by assassins... you get jumped by police vipers.Disembodied wrote:What I think might be interesting would be if certain types of passenger or parcel contracts could be obtained from certain types of secondary stations. The main station would handle the more mundane stuff - e.g. a rep from Edible Moths, Inc. needs to get to a sales conference on X - but contracts along the lines of Shady Type Seeks Fast Ship, Ask No Questions And I'll Tell You No Lies would be much more likely to be found in rock hermits and the like.
'Attention, Cobra III! You are transporting a known criminal! Immediately turn them over to the authorities or we will open fire!'
Now that would make some of the high-price, shady passenger runs very interesting.
Reports of my death have been greatly underestimated.
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Alex
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Re: Secondary markets
That would depend on the bars and gambling places you frequent. Do you think your local black market has a stall at the weekend market?Smivs wrote:
I also strongly believe that extra stations should respect the TL of a system.
Some places (bars, casinos etc) really shouldn't have a market as such - In real life I don't expect to buy a load of furs at my local pub, or sell a consignment of radioactives to the local gambling den.
All these "extras" should remain as oxp/oxz's and never make their way into the core game. As I've noticed some anoying things have. eg. How rescued/captured pilots are handled. Should have been left alone and if you wanted more flavour, have it as an extra.
I really am enjoying how the extra trading places are developing and like to see it continue. As said they should remain as extras so anyone can choose to have or not on their own preference.
It is after all this addaptability that makes Oolite the amazing game it is.
p.s. Really hated sun glare. Thanks Wildblood for the cure to that particular infection.
If you think about it sun glare would have been delt with before the first ships even made it to their nearest planets, Never mind tranversing 8 galaxies!
LOOK OUT!!!
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If you do not see "Press Space" more often than you want.. Your not trying!
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Alex
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Re: Secondary markets
Make anyone think of the East India Trade Co.?If convoys grew significantly larger, piracy would cease to exist in almost all systems. Most places, would-be pirates wouldn't even TRY to attack convoys. The few (anarchy?) systems pirates remained active in might have pirates organizing at a scale that could take on even huge convoys. This would resort in an arms race of sorts...until whole systems and/or nation-states intervened as direct acts of war to fight piracy. Pirate concentrations would end up being reduced, quite a few ships would be destroyed, and systems where that happened have more unstable governments even a few years later. System conquest might just be an added bonus for some such forces, so there might be rules discouraging this. "You do this, we won't trade with you for a year."
Effectivly killed of pirating a couple of centuaries ago.
Anyway, made me think.. Wouldn't that be a huge mission, subdue and take over an anarchy/pirate system.
Why stop there.. I will RULE the Ooniverse!
LOOK OUT!!!
OOPS..
"Press Space" Commander
If you do not see "Press Space" more often than you want.. Your not trying!
OOPS..
"Press Space" Commander
If you do not see "Press Space" more often than you want.. Your not trying!
Re: Secondary markets
Interesting comments and ideas. Thanks for all the comments . Looks like I'll be keeping the main station as "the big market" and secondary markets as "smaller markets".
Rather than trying to think what is real or not, I tend to think how the game works and plays. Just a drop of realism to help the player to orientate and then it's just game play choices. That said, in my opinion, the main station should have the biggest market to attract trading players. That's what the core game assumes anyway. Then there can be smaller markets that add spice and maybe a little profit too. The closer the secondary markets are to the main station, the smaller the profit should be to keep the game interesting.
. Looks like I'll be keeping the main station as "the big market" and secondary markets as "smaller markets".Rather than trying to think what is real or not, I tend to think how the game works and plays. Just a drop of realism to help the player to orientate and then it's just game play choices. That said, in my opinion, the main station should have the biggest market to attract trading players. That's what the core game assumes anyway. Then there can be smaller markets that add spice and maybe a little profit too. The closer the secondary markets are to the main station, the smaller the profit should be to keep the game interesting.
Re: Secondary markets
Yes, it's stupid that Rock Hermits have such cheap prices for what they're harvesting from asteroids considering the trip to the main station doesn't even involve a hyperspace jump. Pretty low risk for piracy too considering many are so far off-the-beaten-path.spara wrote:The closer the secondary markets are to the main station, the smaller the profit should be to keep the game interesting.
Re: Secondary markets
Well, the easier the piracy, the cheaper the price on the rock hermits should be.
Re: Secondary markets
Luckily this has been balanced with low capacity.Switeck wrote:Yes, it's stupid that Rock Hermits have such cheap prices for what they're harvesting from asteroids considering the trip to the main station doesn't even involve a hyperspace jump. Pretty low risk for piracy too considering many are so far off-the-beaten-path.spara wrote:The closer the secondary markets are to the main station, the smaller the profit should be to keep the game interesting.
Re: Secondary markets
I love the extra stations. I like them because they give variation to the game.
Jumping from system to system to predictable prices in the main station kind of bores me.
I generally would love to have surprises and great profit opportunities randomly appearing In some station, And I would like to see the possibility to make some small profit from in system trading, because it makes sense. Otherwise why would anyone, npcs included make this journey?
the distance from the main station, which is the main trading centre of the system should be a factor to the prices, but especially for extra planets, there should be variation to the products of each planet. To me it would make sense en extra planet to have different economy from the main. Maybe the main is agricultural, because it is in the habitable orbit of the system, but an other planet is just an industrial hell in the early stages of teraforming! so for example, cheap food in the first, expensive in the later.
I would also like to see real traffic between the stations especially from non jump capable ships that deal with in system trading.
Ships loaded with stations cheap products should launch with various destinations, and ships loaded with expensive products should be approaching for docking.
Maybe some products could be produced and some could be consumed with time, so every station could have a demand and offer for some products. The prices difference would create a flow of cargoes from station to station
also the price of fuel should be very depended on the distance from the sun. From what I understand the fuel is not fossil, or created but scooped from the star. So sun skimmers should be buzzing from the star to stations and back to cover the demand for running a hole planetary system! It would be great also if there was actually a cargo type "fuel" that you could scoop and trade in the system, maybe there could be shortage of fuel in some stations that have less traffic.
Specific type of stations should have cheap prices and large quantities for their specific products, (e.g. rock hermits, factories) and be byers of consumer products like food or alcohol. Also the existence of a producer of some product, like a rock hermit, should influence the price of the rest of the stations in a manner relevant to distance. so that a rock hermit near a planet should mean that the planet also has cheap minerals and the rock hermit not so expensive food.
(takes a deep breath)
I don't know how many of these are actually implemented, or how difficult would be to implement, or how much of a destruction to the gameplay most of these would be, but in general terms I like things to make sense. (well to me that is , because what makes sense is a mater of opinion
)
My point of view is that balance is good, to the point that it is not boring, or break the immersion,
and realism is also good, to the point that we do not get stuck to details and break the gameplay
It is a delicate balance, and I admire those who manage to keep it while giving us more and more flavour to a great game!
Jumping from system to system to predictable prices in the main station kind of bores me.
I generally would love to have surprises and great profit opportunities randomly appearing In some station, And I would like to see the possibility to make some small profit from in system trading, because it makes sense. Otherwise why would anyone, npcs included make this journey?
the distance from the main station, which is the main trading centre of the system should be a factor to the prices, but especially for extra planets, there should be variation to the products of each planet. To me it would make sense en extra planet to have different economy from the main. Maybe the main is agricultural, because it is in the habitable orbit of the system, but an other planet is just an industrial hell in the early stages of teraforming! so for example, cheap food in the first, expensive in the later.
I would also like to see real traffic between the stations especially from non jump capable ships that deal with in system trading.
Ships loaded with stations cheap products should launch with various destinations, and ships loaded with expensive products should be approaching for docking.
Maybe some products could be produced and some could be consumed with time, so every station could have a demand and offer for some products. The prices difference would create a flow of cargoes from station to station
also the price of fuel should be very depended on the distance from the sun. From what I understand the fuel is not fossil, or created but scooped from the star. So sun skimmers should be buzzing from the star to stations and back to cover the demand for running a hole planetary system! It would be great also if there was actually a cargo type "fuel" that you could scoop and trade in the system, maybe there could be shortage of fuel in some stations that have less traffic.
Specific type of stations should have cheap prices and large quantities for their specific products, (e.g. rock hermits, factories) and be byers of consumer products like food or alcohol. Also the existence of a producer of some product, like a rock hermit, should influence the price of the rest of the stations in a manner relevant to distance. so that a rock hermit near a planet should mean that the planet also has cheap minerals and the rock hermit not so expensive food.
(takes a deep breath)
I don't know how many of these are actually implemented, or how difficult would be to implement, or how much of a destruction to the gameplay most of these would be, but in general terms I like things to make sense. (well to me that is , because what makes sense is a mater of opinion
) My point of view is that balance is good, to the point that it is not boring, or break the immersion,
and realism is also good, to the point that we do not get stuck to details and break the gameplay
It is a delicate balance, and I admire those who manage to keep it while giving us more and more flavour to a great game!
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Cody
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Re: Secondary markets
Yeah, a pity is that!spara wrote:... this has been balanced with low capacity.
I would advise stilts for the quagmires, and camels for the snowy hills
And any survivors, their debts I will certainly pay. There's always a way!
And any survivors, their debts I will certainly pay. There's always a way!
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SteveKing
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Re: Secondary markets
I’m a +1 for secondary markets. That’s a simple comment to make
Where – I’m from the ‘It doesn’t really matter where they are’ camp. At secondary planets seems fairly sensible, but I would not necessarily think that at every secondary planet should have one. Casinos, bars, con-stores, RRS, hermits etc. are scattered well enough.
How much market – I’m for the ‘restricted market’ idea, chosen with consideration to location (distance) from the main market. I think that anything can be taken to a secondary market, but not everything is available from a secondary market.
Margins and pricing – All secondary markets (in a system) should be related to the main market, in so far as non-specialised commodities that might come from a particular market. The following are just examples of how I would think to use a secondary market.
Example 1; A secondary station might have a full market with slight premiums for most things, because it is further away. Otherwise, why would anyone bother to go out there other than an in-system hauler? But why not have a couple of chosen commodities at a more varied price one way or another to encourage a commander to add the side trip because it makes some credits. This way, a ‘Market Analyser’ might be a useful piece of equipment to have for comparing in-system markets.
Example 2; Rock hermits generate radioactives, minerals and PMs&Gs at lower prices, why wouldn’t other traders and in-system haulers want to visit, therefore keeping the quantities restricted at those prices. Higher discounts and quantity for distance and lower govt type (potential piracy). It is still lucrative to have a ‘RH Locator’.
Example 3; RRS has machinery, radioactives and alloys available (I presume from ship salvage) at a lower price than the primary one, so they encourage transport away from the RRS to make room for another salvaged ship. There is no reason why you couldn’t take anything there, but if the price difference is marginal, why would anyone (but an in-system hauler) bother. I think the idea of this OXP is about right for a balanced market and it includes specialist missions (as an aside, it would be nice to be able to tow a derelict ship there, or drop off rescued pirates or ‘slaves’).
Example 4; Space bars, casinos, con-stores are very specific markets with certain commodities at a premium or discount with restricted quantities. Most (marginal premium) trade at a casino would be consumables to the casino (food, alcohol etc.) with the odd outgoing consignment to passing traders. Space bars and con-stores might be a restricted market (lack of storage space) with most of the commodities at discount. Again, in-system haulers would take care of the majority of the market at a marginal discount, but a few tonnes of the more luxury items might give a better return for a passing trader. I tend to think these sorts of stations could be places for specialised contracts, parcels or passengers (as is mentioned in other comments above).
These are just examples of what I’ve had experience with and by no means the full monty. But I think the general idea of secondary markets is sound. As Mohawk suggests ‘..how difficult would be to implement..’ is the matter for someone to take on board. My encouragement to Spara for at least looking at this more in-depth, and I agree with his reasoning that keeping the game playable, with a drop of realism to wave hands at keeps the game spicy
Where – I’m from the ‘It doesn’t really matter where they are’ camp. At secondary planets seems fairly sensible, but I would not necessarily think that at every secondary planet should have one. Casinos, bars, con-stores, RRS, hermits etc. are scattered well enough.
How much market – I’m for the ‘restricted market’ idea, chosen with consideration to location (distance) from the main market. I think that anything can be taken to a secondary market, but not everything is available from a secondary market.
Margins and pricing – All secondary markets (in a system) should be related to the main market, in so far as non-specialised commodities that might come from a particular market. The following are just examples of how I would think to use a secondary market.
Example 1; A secondary station might have a full market with slight premiums for most things, because it is further away. Otherwise, why would anyone bother to go out there other than an in-system hauler? But why not have a couple of chosen commodities at a more varied price one way or another to encourage a commander to add the side trip because it makes some credits. This way, a ‘Market Analyser’ might be a useful piece of equipment to have for comparing in-system markets.
Example 2; Rock hermits generate radioactives, minerals and PMs&Gs at lower prices, why wouldn’t other traders and in-system haulers want to visit, therefore keeping the quantities restricted at those prices. Higher discounts and quantity for distance and lower govt type (potential piracy). It is still lucrative to have a ‘RH Locator’.
Example 3; RRS has machinery, radioactives and alloys available (I presume from ship salvage) at a lower price than the primary one, so they encourage transport away from the RRS to make room for another salvaged ship. There is no reason why you couldn’t take anything there, but if the price difference is marginal, why would anyone (but an in-system hauler) bother. I think the idea of this OXP is about right for a balanced market and it includes specialist missions (as an aside, it would be nice to be able to tow a derelict ship there, or drop off rescued pirates or ‘slaves’).
Example 4; Space bars, casinos, con-stores are very specific markets with certain commodities at a premium or discount with restricted quantities. Most (marginal premium) trade at a casino would be consumables to the casino (food, alcohol etc.) with the odd outgoing consignment to passing traders. Space bars and con-stores might be a restricted market (lack of storage space) with most of the commodities at discount. Again, in-system haulers would take care of the majority of the market at a marginal discount, but a few tonnes of the more luxury items might give a better return for a passing trader. I tend to think these sorts of stations could be places for specialised contracts, parcels or passengers (as is mentioned in other comments above).
These are just examples of what I’ve had experience with and by no means the full monty. But I think the general idea of secondary markets is sound. As Mohawk suggests ‘..how difficult would be to implement..’ is the matter for someone to take on board. My encouragement to Spara for at least looking at this more in-depth, and I agree with his reasoning that keeping the game playable, with a drop of realism to wave hands at keeps the game spicy
SteveKing
(not quite the author)
(not quite the author)
Re: Secondary markets
Planetfall, certain rock hermits, and Superhubs all have no merch... I like to tool around in my little P.O.S. "The Mad Adder" and explore a system making what profit I can while avoiding or hunting deepspace pirates and the like and really getting to know and develop feelings for a place before I move on to the next system to make a credit however I can. whatever happened after I "upgraded" the game has really sucked the fun out for me. Cargo contracts stopped working too? It did for me anyways.
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phkb
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Re: Secondary markets
When you say "stopped working", do you mean there are no contracts available, or that there were non available for you to take, or that you couldn't accept the ones that were available (due to something preventing you), or that after accepting one, you were unable to complete it even though you fulfilled all the criteria? Some additional info will help narrow down where the problem is.Devium wrote:Cargo contracts stopped working too
Just so I understand, when you dock at a Superhub, there is nothing for sale on the Market screen?Devium wrote:...all have no merch
Re: Secondary markets
I no longer have cargo contracts to take, though ITHA escort, passenger, and parcel contracts still work fine. Superhubs have everything in the market zeroed out as well as planetfall, the rock hermit I last visited was added by the commies system OXZ I believe. The hermit the system before had merch though nerfed in quantities. I do have a long list of OXZ's if anyone had anything conflict after upping to 1.82? I have uninstalled the ones that turned grey in manager and been cutting back in general due to my finally finding the right flavor for myself and not needing some of the equipment that made my newbie life easier... or so very much harder *shakes fist at hardships and better AI*) I will probably get those back eventually as my skill progresses though not knocking them at all.
Re: Secondary markets
That's because Oolite 1.82 has a major overhaul of markets and no one has updated markets of these OXPs to work with Oolite 1.82. Some thought should be put in before updating though.Devium wrote:Superhubs have everything in the market zeroed out as well as planetfall, the rock hermit I last visited was added by the commies system OXZ I believe.
Superhubs are a bit problematic as they are positioned next to the main station. If their markets differ from the main station market, then it's just easy money. Then again they are meant for big traders so one would assume there is something to buy there and the capacity should be quite big. The most natural solution would be to define their markets to be exactly the same as the main market. Symptom from that would be that in effect the market has just doubled. Maybe that could be the point of this OXP? To double the main station market. I'm sure that PAGroove will be happy to put in any sensible solution.
Planetfall falls into the same problematic category. What kind of market should the main ground space station have in comparison to the main space station? From game play view they are once again very close to another with zero risk trading, so the markets should not differ much. A little maybe because of the hassle of landing? If anyone has ant bright ideas about this one I'm happy to take a look at it when I've got some spare time.
Commies would need a bigger overhaul including populator update. Not my favorite OXP, so I'll pass.
In older Oolites the capacity of markets of all stations was 127 units per commodity. Oolite 1.82 allows modification of capacity per commodity per station. Rock hermits have an overall low capacity and even lower on commodities they are not interested in. I think this is a good change, but other opinions have also been heardDevium wrote:The hermit the system before had merch though nerfed in quantities.
.