Proposal for 1.82: combat balance changes

[Venator Dha]

Another suggestion to stretch out ship development:
Perhaps there can be an availability parameter added for all equipment, similar to that for ships. So there is only a low chance of it being available for purchase at a system with just the minimum required tech level, increasing to a good chance at a tech level 15 world. So there is a need to explore more systems, looking. I could be that you can only find 1 mil laser for quite some time.

It's not the labour, it's the parts, see

[Stormrider]

Developing (poor - above average) : Combat is in a sweet spot here once Beam lasers/EEU/Shield enhancements installed. Good dogfights (when encountering 4-5 hostiles) that last some time, with a good chance of victory to either side.
Take home : The Beam laser is in the right place, don't change.

I don't know if a poor- above average player should be able to take out five ships. I think this was more of a problem with 1.80 than the weapons. Groups of 5 to 12 pirates sitting on the witchpoint in safe systems sometimes and in unsafe systems almost constantly is a little much. I think this has gotten better, though, I have been attacked by groups of three recently. Fighting so many at one time gets a little tedious for me so smaller groups like this are preferable.

Currently the military laser is an upgrade to the beam laser.
What if they are really just for different uses:
Beam - Dog fighting
Mil - Sniping.
So cost & power are the same, range and heat different.

I thought about this but that only leaves the player with 1 weapon upgrade depending on preferred play style which won't do much for stretching out development. I think adding at least a 'sniping' laser (similar range but faster heat up and less power than mil laser) and increasing the price for the mil laser dramatically might be better.

Tail-end sniping - AKA "Monty Pythoning" - still remains as an uber-tactic, although it would be diminished by this (a good thing). I don't think it's possible, or necessary, to kill it completely.

Giving NPCs mil or sniping lasers might make this tactic less uber, but I think it should be restricted from NPCs until the player has it.

There could even be grades of laser mounts, based on their cooling abilities. You can mount a military laser on a pulse laser point, but it'll overheat incredibly quickly and take an age to cool down. Although this might raise the question of what happens if you fit a beam laser on a military laser mount

I think this would be cool, if you mount a beam laser on a pulse mount it should also eventually break/destroy either the weapon or the mount. A beam laser on beam mount could have the chance of malfunctioning if ship is poorly maintained, beam on mil mount would have virtually no chance of malfunction. Breaking the player weapon probably puts it in the realm of oxp though.
Maybe just cooling systems with poor/average/good heat-up/cool-down times for any weapon that is installed.

Perhaps there can be an availability parameter added for all equipment, similar to that for ships.

I think this is already the case. When I started my current Jameson I couldn't find a beam laser until I had enough credits to afford a mil laser which was also available so I bought it instead. This is one reason I think the mil laser should cost more. I made the difference in cost in just a few jumps.

I think that in the interest of stretching development we might want to increase the price of both the beam and mil laser a lot. With more small groups or even single NPCs willing to attack I think the player can manage longer without the beam laser. I wouldn't be opposed to adding a few more weapons, although I am sure we will see plenty of weapon oxps so I don't know if its really necessary.

[Venator Dha]

Developing (poor - above average) : Combat is in a sweet spot here once Beam lasers/EEU/Shield enhancements installed. Good dogfights (when encountering 4-5 hostiles) that last some time, with a good chance of victory to either side.
Take home : The Beam laser is in the right place, don't change.

I don't know if a poor- above average player should be able to take out five ships. I think this was more of a problem with 1.80 than the weapons. Groups of 5 to 12 pirates sitting on the witchpoint in safe systems sometimes and in unsafe systems almost constantly is a little much. I think this has gotten better, though, I have been attacked by groups of three recently. Fighting so many at one time gets a little tedious for me so smaller groups like this are preferable.

Where the exact point should be will alway be something of a movable feast My feeling is that the balance at this level is now similar to 1.77 but with more interesting dog-fights. The composition of the hostiles is however more important now, if they have a pirate leaders it is very much in their favour, a random group of sidewinders & mambas it's in mine. I think that by the time someone's played to poor and above they'd start to become a bit unhappy with always running away (at least I am ).

Perhaps there can be an availability parameter added for all equipment, similar to that for ships.

I think this is already the case. When I started my current Jameson I couldn't find a beam laser until I had enough credits to afford a mil laser which was also available so I bought it instead. This is one reason I think the mil laser should cost more. I made the difference in cost in just a few jumps.

I was probably unclear as to what I meant here I don't mean the tech level parameter (which might be why you didn't see a beam before a mil laser), but a chance parameter that affects the availability even when the tech level is met. (e.g 10% chance for a beam at TL7 but 100% chance at TL15).

I think that in the interest of stretching development we might want to increase the price of both the beam and mil laser a lot. With more small groups or even single NPCs willing to attack I think the player can manage longer without the beam laser. I wouldn't be opposed to adding a few more weapons, although I am sure we will see plenty of weapon oxps so I don't know if its really necessary.

I agree that some repricing of weapons wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Stormrider]

Where the exact point should be will alway be something of a movable feast My feeling is that the balance at this level is now similar to 1.77 but with more interesting dog-fights. The composition of the hostiles is however more important now, if they have a pirate leaders it is very much in their favour, a random group of sidewinders & mambas it's in mine. I think that by the time someone's played to poor and above they'd start to become a bit unhappy with always running away (at least I am ).

Yes I agree with this and I am enjoying the variation within groups. I was just thinking that with more small groups the player could get some more use out of the pulse laser, maybe stretch development.

I was probably unclear as to what I meant here I don't mean the tech level parameter (which might be why you didn't see a beam before a mil laser), but a chance parameter that affects the availability even when the tech level is met. (e.g 10% chance for a beam at TL7 but 100% chance at TL15).

Hmm...beam laser requires tech level 4 mil tech 10. Must have just been bad luck with random numbers.

[Venator Dha]

Where the exact point should be will alway be something of a movable feast My feeling is that the balance at this level is now similar to 1.77 but with more interesting dog-fights. The composition of the hostiles is however more important now, if they have a pirate leaders it is very much in their favour, a random group of sidewinders & mambas it's in mine. I think that by the time someone's played to poor and above they'd start to become a bit unhappy with always running away (at least I am ).

Yes I agree with this and I am enjoying the variation within groups. I was just thinking that with more small groups the player could get some more use out of the pulse laser, maybe stretch development.

I definitely agree with that. In my original post I was reporting on the situation as it is now, I feel that meeting more 2 & 3 groups would be better; which looks like it might be coming.

The bigger problem is that they don't meet singles or pairs very often to learn the basics of combat.

There's probably room to add a few more pirate packs of that size to the mid-safety systems (Confederacy/Communist).

I was probably unclear as to what I meant here I don't mean the tech level parameter (which might be why you didn't see a beam before a mil laser), but a chance parameter that affects the availability even when the tech level is met. (e.g 10% chance for a beam at TL7 but 100% chance at TL15).

Hmm...beam laser requires tech level 4 mil tech 10. Must have just been bad luck with random numbers.

My understanding is that as it is now, if the tech level is met, then the equipment is there for purchase (unless you have an OXP installed that changes this). I've always seen them at the required tech level. I am suggesting here (for the dev's to consider) that there be a chance factor introduced as well.

[Stormrider]

In my original post I was reporting on the situation as it is now

Yes, thank you for all the testing. I haven't really had time to test this much so I'm glad that someone has.

My understanding is that as it is now, if the tech level is met, then the equipment is there for purchase (unless you have an OXP installed that changes this). I've always seen them at the required tech level. I am suggesting here (for the dev's to consider) that there be a chance factor introduced as well.

Its entirely possible that I've got an oxp that does, and it was a while ago so I'm not sure what systems I might have been in. Doesn't really matter anyway...I do think introducing a chance factor as well would be good.

[Switeck]

The bigger problem is that they don't meet singles or pairs very often to learn the basics of combat.

There's probably room to add a few more pirate packs of that size to the mid-safety systems (Confederacy/Communist).

I'd expect pirate packs to often be whittled down to singles and pairs in higher safety systems by the time the player sees most of them. Either the "extras" are already destroyed "off-camera" or more likely they've fled for repairs or to sell off their accumulated spoils.

I was probably unclear as to what I meant here I don't mean the tech level parameter (which might be why you didn't see a beam before a mil laser), but a chance parameter that affects the availability even when the tech level is met. (e.g 10% chance for a beam at TL7 but 100% chance at TL15).

Hmm...beam laser requires tech level 4 mil tech 10. Must have just been bad luck with random numbers.

My understanding is that as it is now, if the tech level is met, then the equipment is there for purchase (unless you have an OXP installed that changes this). I've always seen them at the required tech level. I am suggesting here (for the dev's to consider) that there be a chance factor introduced as well.

Not only that, there could be conditions to be met before just buying everything to equip a new ship. Military Lasers imply "for the military", but currently the player need not be clean nor competent (kill-wise) before getting them. Didn't either Energy Bombs or Cascade Mines require the player to be clean before purchasing from main stations at one point? (Or was that due to OXPs?)

There might only be 1 Beam or Military Laser for sale, so you couldn't mount 4 on your ship at any 1 station unless it was a very high tech laser production center. It's strongly implied that ships and equipment are overwhelmingly made at only a handful of systems by mega-corporations. So any you see for sale elsewhere are those that made it into the reseller market. So, how often does one sell a Military Laser?

Selling your equipment might only get <90% of its original "best" cost...or worse if your ship is badly in need of a maintenance overhaul. Buying equipment might depend on not only availability but also price markup due to rarity. A Military Laser might be 6,000 credits at a TL14 or TL15 system's main station...but at a TL10 system's main station you'd be unlikely to find one or if you did the price could easily be more than double that. You might be reluctant to buy an "overpriced" item even if you have sufficient credits to do so. Availability and prices should change slowly to prevent "save scumming" to find availability and best prices.

[Venator Dha]

Selling your equipment might only get <90% of its original "best" cost...or worse if your ship is badly in need of a maintenance overhaul. Buying equipment might depend on not only availability but also price markup due to rarity. A Military Laser might be 6,000 credits at a TL14 or TL15 system's main station...but at a TL10 system's main station you'd be unlikely to find one or if you did the price could easily be more than double that. You might be reluctant to buy an "overpriced" item even if you have sufficient credits to do so. Availability and prices should change slowly to prevent "save scumming" to find availability and best prices.

I like your thinking here .

[Zireael]

I think this would be cool, if you mount a beam laser on a pulse mount it should also eventually break/destroy either the weapon or the mount. A beam laser on beam mount could have the chance of malfunctioning if ship is poorly maintained, beam on mil mount would have virtually no chance of malfunction. Breaking the player weapon probably puts it in the realm of oxp though.
Maybe just cooling systems with poor/average/good heat-up/cool-down times for any weapon that is installed.

I like this idea.

[Flauterfiddle]

Just popping in for a comment: I'm a lifetime (E)(Oo)lite player (who's been away a while) and had my ass handed to me like never before in 1.80 when trying to get a new Commander started out. Now I certainly don't have my dogfighting chops back to full yet, but those pirate packs just don't miss with their beams and I was reduced to rubble within seconds every time, until I decided that "run away and aft snipe" was the only way to go. While that is not bad in itself, if it's the ONLY option, it seems a bit boring. It seems like suicide to approach head-on even a single fighter with beam lasers. I used to really enjoy plowing through a pack of pirates head on, taking one out as I fly by them, before settling into a more defensive posture. That seems impossible in 1.80. Egads I can't bear to think of some of the mission OXPs where some of the ships have quad-(militaries?), they must be entirely unplayable....?

My first post, also in abbreviated form since I've only got about 15 hours Oolite time in so far. Like Bogatyr, though, I'm an old Eliter (and I also got to at least Deadly as I recall) from the BBC days and was faintly staggered at the viciousness of pirate attacks in Oolite.

While I also mistakenly thought multi-government was a higher gov. type than it is (oops, 3rd worst), I encountered pirates on 90% of trips made there, and we're talking group after group of 4 pirates, not just a loner or a pair working together.

I'd tried some of my approaches from the old Elite days, as follows:

1. Jink and get closer to deliver a missile at point-blank range. Worked well on a rare group of 2-3, but with 4 ships, you simply cannot target three missiles onto three of them without getting wasted. Pirate accuracy while jinking (bog-standard Cobra III starter with no upgrades, Xbox controller) was astonishingly good, even corkscrewing, start/stop and looping held them off for all of a few seconds.
2. Run away. Never worked, not once. One or all of the group had a long-range laser or a fast ship and I never made it.
3. Cargo dumping. A lovely idea, but usually this runs as follows: dump the canisters; pirates go from red to yellow; pirates then obviously stop for an extended tea break, since they don't seem to actually do anything with your cargo, except set engines to 0.00001 of warp speed and saunter on over to the cloud of pods. This mass-locks you until the next bunch shows up, at which point you have no cargo to offer them.

I've now moved to higher (more peaceful) gov. levels and the pirates have so far not re-appeared, but I'm thinking about how I'd now take on those pirates once I have some more kit. I'd need a *lot* more...

I'm not sure the game needs changing, since I haven't anywhere near the experience with Oolite to make that call, but there is simply no chance of standard Cobra IIIs surviving pirate attacks in the current configuration, since they tend to show up in groups that are borderline invincible. The fact you can't even run away changes things hugely. And I find myself asking why all these pirates want a few tons of food from a Harmless Commander in the first place... It would be like real-world pirates boarding fishing boats and demanding the day's catch. Seems incongruous.

While I didn't pop off to Anarchies after only a few hours in Elite (BBC), I was able to take on 2-3 pirates in a standard Cobra III (often with a missile as backup) with no problems, even if I had to tackle missiles without an ECM (as frequently happened) and I often encountered loners, where dogfighting worked very well (and hence trained me to dogfight for starters). Oolite seems to have pirate gangs rather than pirates and hence the mechanics are different. You are unlikely to survive them so you'll need a shopping list of kit even to make the run to a multi-gov planet.

I think the chaff idea is wonderful and, in terms of the game universe, there has to be some kind of workable decoy/run like hell system better than the current option. You should not survive actively seeking out pirates in poorly-equipped ships, but you should have a good chance of bailing out if it happens accidentally.

Otherwise there's only hyperspace and that usually ends badly, in my experience... frying pan and fire, etc.

[Norby]

Welcome here!

there has to be some kind of workable decoy/run like hell system

Check these:
[wiki]Witch_Fuel_Injectors[/wiki] 600Cr TL11
[wiki]Retro_Rockets_OXP[/wiki] 500Cr TL9
Decoy mine in [wiki]Armoury_OXP[/wiki] 800Cr TL6
[wiki]Energy_Bomb[/wiki] 900Cr TL8

[Flauterfiddle]

Welcome here!

Thank you!

there has to be some kind of workable decoy/run like hell system

Check these:
[wiki]Witch_Fuel_Injectors[/wiki] 600Cr TL11
[wiki]Retro_Rockets_OXP[/wiki] 500Cr TL9
Decoy mine in [wiki]Armoury_OXP[/wiki] 800Cr TL6
[wiki]Energy_Bomb[/wiki] 900Cr TL8

All excellent suggestions, two of which I've yet to discover (OXP options) but I'm thinking more on the lines of ... core newbie commanders are set up with a ship that suggests combat is an option, when it really and truly isn't. A starting ship with, say, injectors as standard but room for only one missile (to compensate) might be an idea? I'm finding myself wanting, say, a one-shot "turbo booster" (fuel injection for 5 seconds for 30 GCr) rather than a missile at the very early stages of the game. As said, four missiles is pretty useless against 3-4 faster, better-armed opponents with when the only other armament is a pulse laser.

While 600 isn't much (200 more than a large cargo bay), I still think something as cheap as a missile that lets you scarper might be more useful for starting players.

But, as said, I'm not going to press the point too hard, since I haven't yet tried all Oolite has to offer and I am absolutely loving the return to the game universe generally, so these are just well-meant gripes, if they are even that :=).

And the point about starting ship choices has probably been made before on another thread. That's something where I think options would be very welcome indeed. Like: you get 250000 GCr to spend as you wish...

[Diziet Sma]

G'day Flauterfiddle, and welcome aboard.

Thanks for the feedback, too. Oolite did indeed suddenly become "Nintendo hard™" with the release of 1.80. What had previously been fairly run-of-the-mill pirates turned into vicious gangs overnight. The change even inspired some excellent Oo-fiction to explain it all.

As you can see from this thread, efforts to rebalance combat for the next release of Oolite are ongoing, and one or two OXPs designed to tone things down some in 1.80 are expected to be available soon.

[Cody]

Oolite did indeed suddenly become "Nintendo hard™" with the release of 1.80.

I wouldn't put it quite like that - it became a little harder, perhaps.

[Diziet Sma]

I did think about that some, after posting it.. but for newbies to Oolite, at least, it seems to come under that category.