Combat balance - 1.80 and 1.82

[Ranthe]

I disagree, personally - sending Jamesons offlane is a cop-out, really, the equivalent of saying "just dodge the game for the couple of dozen runs, until you've got a better ship". It would be quicker just to start the player off with more money or equipment (not something I would recommend).

No, it isn't a "cop-out" or an exploit. It is simply using the 3 dimensional environment the game provides, in a strategic manner, rather than playing it as a 2D vertical scroller (start the level at the witchspace bouy, then blast your way up-screen to the safety of the station at level's end.)

I concur with demon59, and I'm also somewhat perturbed about how this is seen as a bad thing and the gameplay needs to be adjusted to block this "exploit". I don't see going off the lane as a "dodge the game manoeuvre" in the slightest - as a sandbox game, options for the pilot to take or not as they see fit should always be an option in Oolite or it turns into just another space-based slug-em-out combat-fest. I enjoy playing Oolite because I can CHOOSE whether or not to take a route that sends me into potential danger, not be FORCED to.

Besides, after a while the off-lane route becomes sufficiently dull that you WANT to go back to the main route for some excitement and some "local colour", as it were

[Neelix]

I concur with demon59, and I'm also somewhat perturbed about how this is seen as a bad thing and the gameplay needs to be adjusted to block this "exploit". I don't see going off the lane as a "dodge the game manoeuvre" in the slightest - as a sandbox game, options for the pilot to take or not as they see fit should always be an option in Oolite or it turns into just another space-based slug-em-out combat-fest. I enjoy playing Oolite because I can CHOOSE whether or not to take a route that sends me into potential danger, not be FORCED to.

Besides, after a while the off-lane route becomes sufficiently dull that you WANT to go back to the main route for some excitement and some "local colour", as it were

I too have to agree with this... I spent the first part of my game avoiding combat.. my ship was mostly iron-assed before I was more than Mostly Harmless. (I was actually kind of miffed when that was "upgraded" to poor, as it didn't seem like an improvement) Since then my play style has completely changed, and I'm likely to cruise the witchpoint-planet route multiple times in each system looking for a fight. I think it's a strength of the game that both play styles are options.

- Neelix

[Switeck]

Pirates should "sum up" the difficulty of an attack based on what's within sensor range rather than just counting the ships in 1 group, and having Police Vipers around should be a big discouragement but not a total one if their numbers are low and the system is more "lawless". If pirate groups can be presumed to (always?) assist each other, then so too can trader groups.

Got to correct myself here. If pirates size up a freighter group the moment it enters their sensor range, they might miss whatever is following immediately behind it and commit themselves to an attack they will either be forced to flee or die. So maybe they should wait till something is within about 15-20 km to decide to attack it and then check out to ~30 km -- simulating their ability to visually spot just-off-radar ships. Maybe this could vary from pirate group to pirate group -- the dumb ones might not be so good at this!

A pirate group could also declare their "Give us cargo or we attack!" speech somewhere between 25 km and 15 km and start moving to intercept at that moment, but not opening fire till maybe a minute later or well within range or if their target has already turned to flee. This may give them time to spot any new arrivals and size up the actions of their target/s, so they can change their mind as needed. Some pirates may get "tunnel vision" and continue attacking a fleeing target even while Police Vipers/Bounty Hunters/Traders come into range. Others may break off an attack at even the illusion of a defense.

There could be an option to buy "Empty" cargo pods to feed the pirates at 0.1 to 1 credit each. (Perhaps available only at more lawless systems main stations or at rock hermits?)

[Crush]

I find the combat balance in 1.80 really quite unfriendly, especially as someone who tries to grab a quick few minutes here and there, which means using the keyboard (<aside> if anyone knows of a little full featured joystick that will fit easily on a laptop bag for use on the go, please tell me </aside>).

I can steer clear of combat or get wasted seem to be the choices (I have been "deadly" in the past, current incarnation is "competent", I'm using military laser and have a military shield enhancement, so I don't think I should be easy pickings). Usually I get nailed by the NPCs mates while I'm trying to nail the first one.

Missiles now seem to be useless. This just strikes me as wrong - if you look at how air/naval combat has evolved, torpedoes and missiles have replaced guns as the main weapons, and I would expect the same to hold true in space combat. Then rationing your missiles / torpedoes becomes key.

Plus, I can't hit anything with side / rear mount lasers - so I don't see why the NPCs should be able to. Again, looking to air combat, single seat fighters (when guns were the main weapon system) had the guns pointing forwards.

So I'm afraid to say, despite all the work that's clearly gone into 1.80, it's a lot less fun, simply because I am pressing space far too often

<off_topic> some of the prices of (OXZ introduced) items on the ship equipment (f3) menu display with a price of 0.0 but actually cost more </off_topic>

[Disembodied]

I disagree, personally - sending Jamesons offlane is a cop-out, really, the equivalent of saying "just dodge the game for the couple of dozen runs, until you've got a better ship". It would be quicker just to start the player off with more money or equipment (not something I would recommend).

No, it isn't a "cop-out" or an exploit. It is simply using the 3 dimensional environment the game provides, in a strategic manner, rather than playing it as a 2D vertical scroller (start the level at the witchspace bouy, then blast your way up-screen to the safety of the station at level's end.)

I concur with demon59, and I'm also somewhat perturbed about how this is seen as a bad thing and the gameplay needs to be adjusted to block this "exploit". I don't see going off the lane as a "dodge the game manoeuvre" in the slightest - as a sandbox game, options for the pilot to take or not as they see fit should always be an option in Oolite or it turns into just another space-based slug-em-out combat-fest. I enjoy playing Oolite because I can CHOOSE whether or not to take a route that sends me into potential danger, not be FORCED to.

Besides, after a while the off-lane route becomes sufficiently dull that you WANT to go back to the main route for some excitement and some "local colour", as it were

I'm all for having choices in a game - but as a rule, game choices should be balanced between pro and con. There's no "con" to going offlane, except that eventually it gets boring - never a good factor to have in any game. It's not that big a deal, as far as I'm concerned, but it's not something I would want to recommend to new players because it's an immersion-breaker. Why doesn't everyone go offlane, since it's so much safer?

If all the player is getting out of it is a bit of flying and docking practice, they could get that in Lave without leaving the aegis (or in the tutorial, for that matter). If what they're getting out of it is the chance to make free money and tool up their ship before they get bored and start actually playing the game, then that, to me, suggests that some more work is needed on the early stages. Otherwise, you might as well just be given C*10,000 to start with instead of C*100: it would save a lot of time.

Also, going offlane allows players to take any route across the galaxy, and reach any planet, for no risk. I think new players should be encouraged to see Oolite as a sandbox game - you can do what you want, but there should be consequences - as opposed to just being a sandbox. Of course, the latter option is always possible, and anyone is free to edit their game as they see fit, but a tactic that allows a Jameson to visit an Anarchy strikes me as being very much an exploit.

[Switeck]

Of course, the latter option is always possible, and anyone is free to edit their game as they see fit, but a tactic that allows a Jameson to visit an Anarchy strikes me as being very much an exploit.

Perhaps your last sentence should be worded:
, but a tactic that allows a Jameson to pass through an Anarchy quickly and survive strikes me as being very much an exploit.

[Disembodied]

Of course, the latter option is always possible, and anyone is free to edit their game as they see fit, but a tactic that allows a Jameson to visit an Anarchy strikes me as being very much an exploit.

Perhaps your last sentence should be worded:
, but a tactic that allows a Jameson to pass through an Anarchy quickly and survive strikes me as being very much an exploit.

Yes, very true ... there's nothing to prevent someone jumping from Lave to Riedquat, first time out - but it shouldn't be possible for them to survive the trip to the Riedquat coriolis without an enormous slice of good luck.

[Holmes177]

OK, tried this OXZ in Ver 1.80 and it did seem to make a difference. I probably did about 8-10 jumps and found that I could survive most of the ambushes by 6 or so pirates, without having to dump cargo or completely run away on injectors. However, I did notice that when hyperspeed gets mass locked by a ship, that I would continue at hyperspeed for several seconds. Even to the point of the ship that caused the masslock to disappear off the scanner. Using just regular thrust, the ship seems to coast for a few seconds after bringing the throttle to idle. I damn near collided with a beacon when having to manually dock(docking computer damaged in combat). I know that in 1.77, when you drop the throttle all the way back, you stop now. Don't remember if 1.80 did this without this OXZ installed.

I'm glad to see that a few others are unhappy with the balance of combat in 1.80 and applaud the effort put into this OXZ. Looking forward to ver 1.82

[Switeck]

there's nothing to prevent someone jumping from Lave to Riedquat, first time out - but it shouldn't be possible for them to survive the trip to the Riedquat coriolis without an enormous slice of good luck.

Traveling down the spacelane might be survivable if you follow a freighter group or 2 from a safe distance. It will just be a very slow trip. And if that freighter group loses...flee away from the planet till you find another freighter group to hide behind.

[aen32]

I find the combat balance in 1.80 really quite unfriendly, especially as someone who tries to grab a quick few minutes here and there, which means using the keyboard

I can steer clear of combat or get wasted seem to be the choices (I have been "deadly" in the past, current incarnation is "competent", I'm using military laser and have a military shield enhancement, so I don't think I should be easy pickings). Usually I get nailed by the NPCs mates while I'm trying to nail the first one.

Missiles now seem to be useless. This just strikes me as wrong - if you look at how air/naval combat has evolved, torpedoes and missiles have replaced guns as the main weapons, and I would expect the same to hold true in space combat. Then rationing your missiles / torpedoes becomes key.

Plus, I can't hit anything with side / rear mount lasers - so I don't see why the NPCs should be able to. Again, looking to air combat, single seat fighters (when guns were the main weapon system) had the guns pointing forwards.

So I'm afraid to say, despite all the work that's clearly gone into 1.80, it's a lot less fun, simply because I am pressing space far too often

Hi Crush,
I do have the same experiences with version 1.80. It's a good idea of the OP to adjust the game balance in 1.82 (in my opinion it needs a big adjustment towards easy and not just a small one).
But you raised another important topic about missiles and their increased disregard in 1.80. I agree that missile combat is an important strategic part of oolite and should be made more interesting/ useful in future versions.

[Venator Dha]

For my personal preference the balance adjustment OXP that cim posted here makes the game's starting difficulty right. It's difficult but not impossible to survive combat situations, and doesn't make the start a cake-walk.

In terms of combat I don't think anyone should expect to engage 4 or more hostiles without a high risk of destruction.

However one persons fun combat can be another's nightmare.
So I was wondering if it would be better to make the combat easier and to have an adjustment OXP that would allow those of us who want a challenge at the start to have one ( Skilled_NPCs_OXP might already do this). The inverse of what we have now.

[Disembodied]

Traveling down the spacelane might be survivable if you follow a freighter group or 2 from a safe distance. It will just be a very slow trip. And if that freighter group loses...flee away from the planet till you find another freighter group to hide behind.

True, but I don't regard this as an exploit: first of all, you need to be lucky enough to find a freighter group at all; then you need to be lucky enough to find one that can make it through, where you can survive in its shadow. If a new player makes it to an Anarchy coriolis using this tactic, then they've had to expend thought, time and effort to get it, and they've a nerve-wracking trip within the logical parameters of the game. It's not a reliable, repeatable, use-anywhere manoeuvre.

[aen32]

For my personal preference the balance adjustment OXP that cim posted here makes the game's starting difficulty right. It's difficult but not impossible to survive combat situations, and doesn't make the start a cake-walk.

In terms of combat I don't think anyone should expect to engage 4 or more hostiles without a high risk of destruction.

However one persons fun combat can be another's nightmare.

I haven't tested the new OXPs by now, maybe I try this week if got some quiet minutes...
For me, as an occasional player, it's OK to die if you meet 4 or more hostiles - there should be some challenges for the more skillful players. But due to the past balance changes the encounters in OO-verse have become "digital": No encounter at all or 4+ ships at once and that's the reason for my criticism.

[Venator Dha]

But due to the past balance changes the encounters in OO-verse have become "digital": No encounter at all or 4+ ships at once and that's the reason for my criticism.

I agree with this. It is an all or nothing Ooniverse now. All my 1 & 2 ship encounters have been when traveling off-lane and are therefore introduced by  DeepSpacePirates not the core.

[Richard-H]

Cim,

After 4 day's of testing this are the results

The test got better and better after running the test senario's for manny times you need to get used again to go fighting wit so little resources
well it was fun to run them

here are my results


Scenario 1

Select the following options: Sidewinder, Harmless.
How many can you face at once and win the fight? 2 (lost 5 times out of 15 times)
How many can you face at once and take at least one with you before you die? 3 (i kan take out one somtimes 2 before i'm dead but 3 is too much)

not easy but it can be done but damage to ship and lost my screens a view times

a example of my logging
test 1 (14-08-2014)
1 Sidewinder 1e try
22:05:23.127 [Ships Log]: 2084004:20:24:24 Receiving message :
22:05:23.127 [Ships Log]: Starting combat now from ship Simulator Fighter: Sidewinder
22:05:24.838 [Ships Log]: 2084004:20:24:26 Launched from station Rock Hermit Lave
22:05:38.227 [Ships Log]: 2084004:20:24:39 energy damage From Simulator Fighter: Sidewinder (1.9461336135864258)
22:05:38.727 [Ships Log]: 2084004:20:24:40 energy damage From Simulator Fighter: Sidewinder (13.9993896484375)
22:05:39.228 [Ships Log]: 2084004:20:24:40 energy damage From Simulator Fighter: Sidewinder (13.999212265014648)
22:05:39.728 [Ships Log]: 2084004:20:24:41 energy damage From Simulator Fighter: Sidewinder (13.999334335327148)
22:05:40.228 [Ships Log]: 2084004:20:24:41 energy damage From Simulator Fighter: Sidewinder (13.9993896484375)
22:05:40.729 [Ships Log]: 2084004:20:24:42 energy damage From Simulator Fighter: Sidewinder (13.999261856079102)
22:05:41.049 [Ships Log]: 2084004:20:24:42 Receiving message :
22:05:41.049 [Ships Log]: Good shooting! from ship Simulator Fighter: Sidewinder
22:06:07.748 [Ships Log]: 2084004:20:25:09 Receiving message :
22:06:07.748 [Ships Log]: Don't give up now. from ship Simulator Fighter: Sidewinder
22:06:12.180 [Ships Log]: 2084004:20:25:13 Destroyed the Simulator Fighter: SidewinderScenario 2

Select the following options: Sidewinder Escort, Harmless.
How many can you face at once and win the fight? 3 (lost 3 times out of 15 times)
How many can you face at once and take at least one with you before you die? 4 (i can take out 2 a 3 and 4 is to much)

much more easy but also much damage to ship

Scenario 3
Select the following options: Sidewinder, Unqualified.
How many can you face at once and win the fight? 6 or more (lost 0 times out of 15 times)Scenario 4

Select the following options: Sidewinder, Mostly Harmless.
How many can you face at once and win the fight? 1 (lost 3 out of 15 times)
How many can you face at once and take at least one with you before you die? 2 (lost 10 times out of 15 times)

For this final scenario, use your current ship with whatever options it has equipped.
Again, avoid the use of missiles and other pylon or single-use equipment, but you may
use any lasers, fuel injectors, shields, turrets, and so on your ship has equipped.

Scenario 5
Please describe your ship and its equipment concisely
Cobra courier mk2 ( same spec als de standard exept its size )
all standard eq without Integrated Targeting System
Naval Energy grid
Automatic chaff System
IronHide


Select the following options: Sidewinder, Harmless.
How many can you face at once and win the fight?
How many can you face at once and take at least one with you before you die?

the combat sim dit not work with my ship oxp

Richard