Combat balance - 1.80 and 1.82

[Venator Dha]

I've been playing some new starting commanders with the balance adjustment OXP in place and I think that it's just about right for an experienced player. But is probably too hard for an inexperienced player who is trying to sort out the may complexities of flying, combat, trading, gov.type etc.
To survive combat with 2 or more hostile contacts requires taking the correct strategic decisions even before engaging in combat. Then there's the tactical decisions to get right in combat.
e.g.
Strategic: Fight or flight?
In most cases flight is the right choice, but a inexperience player is most likely to choose fight, quickly leading to press space commander.
Tactical: how long to keep firing on one target when starting to take fire from a second?
Again for an inexperienced player it is easy to get focused on killing the target in your sights, loosing a shield to the second attacker, quickly leads to press space commander. Learning to break off and turn the other shield to the new attacker is important. If you have hit the first enough it will withdraw at least temporarily.

All this can make it a interesting and exciting start for an experienced player, but a nightmare for an inexperienced one.

I think the only way around this is to have at least two starting levels that affect the AI experience at least in the start of the game. Give inexperienced players an easier start, that gets removed as they get more kills (if possible) so that at average (perhaps) there's only one level.

[Disembodied]

All this can make it a interesting and exciting start for an experienced player, but a nightmare for an inexperienced one.

I think the only way around this is to have at least two starting levels that affect the AI experience at least in the start of the game. Give inexperienced players an easier start, that gets removed as they get more kills (if possible) so that at average (perhaps) there's only one level.

I'm not sure about that, to be honest. It's true that an inexperienced player might choose to fight, straight off the bat, but that's the wrong choice, and learning that is part of gaining experience. Running away, especially combined with dumping cargo when pirates demand it, is the best option. Would it be possible to reduce NPC AIs to a level where a brand-new player in an unequipped ship could have a reasonable chance of defeating them, without making the game seem like some sort of turkey shoot?

There is an issue, whereby brand-new players might expect the game to go easy on them, which is incompatible with any sort of sandbox game. If we want to make things easier on new players, then perhaps starting them off with some in-game advice and/or beginning job, e.g. "Take this to Leesti – and by the way, there's a nice safe little route from Leesti to Diso and back". An alternative would be to make the whole Old Worlds area into much more of a paddling pool (with diminished profits to match).

While I'm in favour of helping new players into the game, I think one of the great appeals of Oolite is that you actually get better at it with experience - not just with beefing up your ship. It's a physical skill, which you can improve with practice.

[Venator Dha]

All this can make it a interesting and exciting start for an experienced player, but a nightmare for an inexperienced one.

I think the only way around this is to have at least two starting levels that affect the AI experience at least in the start of the game. Give inexperienced players an easier start, that gets removed as they get more kills (if possible) so that at average (perhaps) there's only one level.

I'm not sure about that, to be honest.

I'm really neutral on it
However 1.80 has made the start harder in some ways - which I like - but does make what was a steep learning curve even steeper.

Would it be possible to reduce NPC AIs to a level where a brand-new player in an unequipped ship could have a reasonable chance of defeating them, without making the game seem like some sort of turkey shoot?

This is why I suggested making the difference diminish with kills and to be a choice.

There is an issue, whereby brand-new players might expect the game to go easy on them, which is incompatible with any sort of sandbox game.

Your point on it being a sandbox is relevant, however due to OXPs everyone has an individual sandbox unlike anyone else's, so would an easy start option be against this?

If we want to make things easier on new players, then perhaps starting them off with some in-game advice and/or beginning job, e.g. "Take this to Leesti – and by the way, there's a nice safe little route from Leesti to Diso and back". An alternative would be to make the whole Old Worlds area into much more of a paddling pool (with diminished profits to match).

There could be some milage in this^^ idea, I like it.

[Zireael]

I like the beginning job idea.

I think the only way around this is to have at least two starting levels that affect the AI experience at least in the start of the game. Give inexperienced players an easier start, that gets removed as they get more kills (if possible) so that at average (perhaps) there's only one level.

That's a good idea, too.

[demon59]

I think a possible solution would be to stop thinking of the "leave the space lane" tactic as an exploit, since it is only common sense that experienced (read that as "iron assed") traders, couriers, (time is money) would stick to the lanes, while new Jamesons, and even veteran pilots whose ships aren't at 100%, would duck off the beaten path to make it to safe harbor.

Perhaps things could be tweaked to place the larger/more dangerous/higher bounty pirate groups and singles, on the main lane (looking for the "fat" targets), and populate the fringes with smaller/less dangerous/lower bounty groups and singles (looking for "easier pickings"). By making the "avoid the space lanes as a noob" advice prominent, this should create defacto "difficulty levels" for new and experienced players, while making sure that "taking the back roads" stops being a free ride to the aegis.

Of course, I'm not a coder, so this might actually be a more difficult fix than just creating multiple difficulty levels at start-up, or simply finding a way to tie the number and skill of the NPC's to the players game rank.

[Disembodied]

I think a possible solution would be to stop thinking of the "leave the space lane" tactic as an exploit, since it is only common sense that experienced (read that as "iron assed") traders, couriers, (time is money) would stick to the lanes, while new Jamesons, and even veteran pilots whose ships aren't at 100%, would duck off the beaten path to make it to safe harbor.

Perhaps things could be tweaked to place the larger/more dangerous/higher bounty pirate groups and singles, on the main lane (looking for the "fat" targets), and populate the fringes with smaller/less dangerous/lower bounty groups and singles (looking for "easier pickings"). By making the "avoid the space lanes as a noob" advice prominent, this should create defacto "difficulty levels" for new and experienced players, while making sure that "taking the back roads" stops being a free ride to the aegis.

Of course, I'm not a coder, so this might actually be a more difficult fix than just creating multiple difficulty levels at start-up, or simply finding a way to tie the number and skill of the NPC's to the players game rank.

I disagree, personally - sending Jamesons offlane is a cop-out, really, the equivalent of saying "just dodge the game for the couple of dozen runs, until you've got a better ship". It would be quicker just to start the player off with more money or equipment (not something I would recommend).

The problem seems to be that inexperienced played might think that fighting back, armed with a pulse laser and misplaced confidence, is a valid tactic. It is not necessarily a bad thing for them to be disabused of that notion early doors. It is still easy for beginning players to survive an encounter with a group of pirates: just give them the cargo they ask for!

Of course, dropping cargo is not an intuitive manoeuvre: it's definitely not the first set of controls one tends to learn. Perhaps it might be worth introducing jettisoning, and even scooping, to the in-game training?

[Zireael]

Of course, dropping cargo is not an intuitive manoeuvre: it's definitely not the first set of controls one tends to learn. Perhaps it might be worth introducing jettisoning, and even scooping, to the in-game training?

That's a very good idea.

[demon59]

I disagree, personally - sending Jamesons offlane is a cop-out, really, the equivalent of saying "just dodge the game for the couple of dozen runs, until you've got a better ship". It would be quicker just to start the player off with more money or equipment (not something I would recommend).

No, it isn't a "cop-out" or an exploit. It is simply using the 3 dimensional environment the game provides, in a strategic manner, rather than playing it as a 2D vertical scroller (start the level at the witchspace bouy, then blast your way up-screen to the safety of the station at level's end.)

It is still easy for beginning players to survive an encounter with a group of pirates: just give them the cargo they ask for!

Tried that. Doesn't work. They ask for the cargo, start shooting before I can even begin dumping it, and don't stop shooting after I start dumping it. I've never managed to get more that half of what they asked for off my ship, before they burned through my shields and blew me out of space. Plus, they don't always ask, do they?

If you tell a new player to "just give them the cargo they ask for" you'll simply make sure they not only think the game is too difficult, but that the community, as a source of gameplay info, is a waste of time. Not Good.

Of course, dropping cargo is not an intuitive manoeuvre: it's definitely not the first set of controls one tends to learn. Perhaps it might be worth introducing jettisoning, and even scooping, to the in-game training?

Finally! Something we can agree on, without reservation!

"Give them the cargo" should be good advice. Perhaps the AI could be adjusted to actually give one time to do so.

[spara]

An idea. Could space (or double space) be used to answer a demand automatically? In case of cargo demand of 5TC of food, it would automatically jettison 5TC food.

This kind of "yes" might serve some other scenarios too.

[cim]

A quick reminder to please consider doing the combat simulator survey if you haven't already. I'm getting some data, but I need a lot more, I think - Harmless, Elite, or anything in between. Thanks to everyone who has completed it so far.

There is an issue, whereby brand-new players might expect the game to go easy on them, which is incompatible with any sort of sandbox game.

Though most sandbox games have perhaps an easier job in terms of "safe" and "dangerous" areas - sure, there'll be places you can't reach until you're good enough to beat a particular challenge, and more you'll have to to take a very indirect route to get to, but Oolite's map mixes safe and dangerous systems very closely together to the extent that getting anywhere at all much more interesting than the Leesti-Diso or Isinor-Zaonce run involves going through a system in the upper half of the difficulty range. That makes it quite difficult to balance the game to allow new players to start enjoying the trading/exploration parts of the game, without leaving very little space for the tougher systems to actually be tougher - the curve would need to be almost flat at least to Dictatorship, before moving up incredibly sharply for Feudal and Anarchy.

(Click for larger image)

You can get pretty much everywhere in Chart 1 without needing to go through a Feudal or Anarchy system. You have to take a bit of an indirect route to get to the Xexedi cluster and the systems NW of it, and the systems in and past the Tortuga expanse in the far east are cut off, of course, but it's still manageable.

Take out Multigov as well, and you're restricted quite a bit further - the chart becomes very disconnected, though the central cluster isn't too bad if it wasn't for you not actually starting in it... and we're still a long way above systems recommended for beginners.

I'm still looking at/for potential solutions which don't involve major changes to the entire game.

No, it isn't a "cop-out" or an exploit. It is simply using the 3 dimensional environment the game provides, in a strategic manner,

Well, sort of. It's exploiting the fact that on torus drive - which the NPCs don't have - you can get past them without them being able to catch up. If you did that "avoid the lane" at conventional speeds, or if NPCs were also allowed torus drive, the faster pirate ships would be able to intercept you (and even the slower ones would have a decent chance to, if they were between you and the planet to start with)

Perhaps the AI could be adjusted to actually give one time to do so.

I think a useful step could be to significantly sharpen the deceleration when coming out of torus drive, so you come to a stop within a couple of kilometres, rather than about 15km. As it is, you can slide right into laser range of a pirate ambush, and be very close by the time they've finished scanning you and decided to attack. If they were 20km away when they made their demand, you'd be out of their laser range anyway, and have a bit more time to decide whether to dump cargo and/or run away, and plenty of time to actually drop it.

Also: you'd come out of torus further from the planet, which would make it quicker to turn around back out of its masslock to move around it to the station, and we could even reduce the masslock radius of the planet slightly since you wouldn't ram into it.

[Falcon777]

An idea. Could space (or double space) be used to answer a demand automatically? In case of cargo demand of 5TC of food, it would automatically jettison 5TC food.

This kind of "yes" might serve some other scenarios too.

I've never had them specify what kind of cargo I have to dump. But a quick yes button that drops the cargo demanded would kind of be nice, especially since the npc traders can already do that. I saw that the other day when a group demanded that a python drop 15 tonne cannisters and he was like, "Sure! Please, just don't hurt me!" and then ran the other way, safe and sound. The pirates on the other hand...not so safe.

[Neelix]

An idea. Could space (or double space) be used to answer a demand automatically? In case of cargo demand of 5TC of food, it would automatically jettison 5TC food.

This kind of "yes" might serve some other scenarios too.

I've never had them specify what kind of cargo I have to dump. But a quick yes button that drops the cargo demanded would kind of be nice, especially since the npc traders can already do that. I saw that the other day when a group demanded that a python drop 15 tonne cannisters and he was like, "Sure! Please, just don't hurt me!" and then ran the other way, safe and sound. The pirates on the other hand...not so safe.

Most pirates aren't too picky about what you dump... they have no way of knowing what you are carrying. That being said it would be nice if it were easier to dump a certain type of cargo... currently if I want to dump more than one canister of food or textiles I have to press Shift-R after dumping each one to cycle through to the next canister of one of those types before hitting dump again. It would also be useful to be able to check what kind of cargo is currently lined up for ejection.

- Neelix

[Venator Dha]

Expanding on Disembodied's beginning job idea:

What if the new commander was given a mission at the start to deliver something to Tionisla that rewarded them with injectors.

After some thought I think that the problem isn't really with the balance of the lasers, but rather that there is no way out if you find yourself in dangerous situation. Having injectors solves this (always the first thing I buy). Giving the new payer a mission also feels like a good way to introduce them to the game. Lave-Zaonce-Tionisla should be an easy route, with trade possibilities. The mission could introduce a specific 1:1 combat experience to make it interesting but not disaster. And would not require any major changes I guess.

[Disembodied]

It is still easy for beginning players to survive an encounter with a group of pirates: just give them the cargo they ask for!

Tried that. Doesn't work. They ask for the cargo, start shooting before I can even begin dumping it, and don't stop shooting after I start dumping it. I've never managed to get more that half of what they asked for off my ship, before they burned through my shields and blew me out of space. Plus, they don't always ask, do they?

When I tried it, I was able to choose a heading (away from the planet), dump the requested amount, and escape, while the pirates stopped firing and headed off, satisfied, following my ejected cargo. Admittedly I've only used this tactic once, and it worked perfectly - I'd just assumed all was well on that front. Obviously that's not the case. How are you ejecting the cargo? For me, it's just tap-tap-tap equals three pods ejected. Are you in a Cobra III? Or something larger?

I think a useful step could be to significantly sharpen the deceleration when coming out of torus drive, so you come to a stop within a couple of kilometres, rather than about 15km. As it is, you can slide right into laser range of a pirate ambush, and be very close by the time they've finished scanning you and decided to attack. If they were 20km away when they made their demand, you'd be out of their laser range anyway, and have a bit more time to decide whether to dump cargo and/or run away, and plenty of time to actually drop it.

This could be a very useful change - although it would still be worthwhile, I think, teaching new players how do drop, and scoop, cargo. Mind you, it would also increase still further the value of the military laser and long-range sniping, since more combats would begin outside most NPC laser ranges.

[Venator Dha]

I think a useful step could be to significantly sharpen the deceleration when coming out of torus drive, so you come to a stop within a couple of kilometres, rather than about 15km. As it is, you can slide right into laser range of a pirate ambush, and be very close by the time they've finished scanning you and decided to attack. If they were 20km away when they made their demand, you'd be out of their laser range anyway, and have a bit more time to decide whether to dump cargo and/or run away, and plenty of time to actually drop it.

This could be a very useful change - although it would still be worthwhile, I think, teaching new players how do drop, and scoop, cargo. Mind you, it would also increase still further the value of the military laser and long-range sniping, since more combats would begin outside most NPC laser ranges.

Personally, I think it's fine as it is. Getting into difficulties is part of the game.
Not having a way out is the problem, for a new Jameson.
I think creating an easy way to obtain a way out (such as injectors) would be a better way to fix it.