Proposal for 1.82: equipment balancing and choices

[Venator Dha]

Why not have the damage inflicted by the laser (of whatever flavour) be range-dependent? So at point-blank range it gives 100% of its damage level, but at maximum range it only gives 50% (for example).

Percentages and damage levels could be tweaked, but it perhaps offers a way to maintain the long range of the mil laser without making it unbalanced to NPCs.

Like the idea.

As do I. Don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes and all that....

[Switeck]

I would imagine that if that were implemented a lot of things would have to be tweaked so as to make sure the game wasn't too hard or too easy.

Definitely. The Constrictor Hunt mission would need a lot of testing, since a lot of the fighting in that is spent at long range.

That's why I suggested having lasers still do 100% damage out to 50% of their max range.

Max range could even be increased slightly to compensate if that still seems a problem.

[Zireael]

Any merit in seperating ship to ship mass-lock from the scanner range?
Maybe to just outside beam laser range? (tries to remember how far that is ...)

Maybe do something like ED that is, bigger ships masslock in scanner range, smaller ships masslock less, planet & station masslock left unchanged.

[mossfoot]

Any merit in seperating ship to ship mass-lock from the scanner range?
Maybe to just outside beam laser range? (tries to remember how far that is ...)

Maybe do something like ED that is, bigger ships masslock in scanner range, smaller ships masslock less, planet & station masslock left unchanged.

And asteroids? Funny how "mass" doesn't count with those giant chunks of rock that are bigger than your ship

[Neelix]

And asteroids? Funny how "mass" doesn't count with those giant chunks of rock that are bigger than your ship [/quote]

If I recall the handwavium correctly it's not actually the mass of the ship that causes the mass-lock, (most ships just aren't massive enough for that to be a factor) but the powered drive unit. That's also why you don't get mass-locked by derelicts.

- Neelix

[mossfoot]

And asteroids? Funny how "mass" doesn't count with those giant chunks of rock that are bigger than your ship

If I recall the handwavium correctly it's not actually the mass of the ship that causes the mass-lock, (most ships just aren't massive enough for that to be a factor) but the powered drive unit. That's also why you don't get mass-locked by derelicts.

- Neelix

Yeah, I always assumed it was a combination of mass and energy - hence planets and suns count as well as ships and stations, but not asteroids... and I guess Rock Hermits are too small to affect it

Still, if some restructuring of when a ship mass locks based on size comes into play, it couldn't hurt to factor in asteroids as well. Just that you have to be REALLY close to them (1km?)

[Neelix]

Yeah, I always assumed it was a combination of mass and energy - hence planets and suns count as well as ships and stations, but not asteroids... and I guess Rock Hermits are too small to affect it

Still, if some restructuring of when a ship mass locks based on size comes into play, it couldn't hurt to factor in asteroids as well. Just that you have to be REALLY close to them (1km?)

I don't think that kind of change really makes much sense, but if we were going to go that way, and given the existing handwavium on the subject I wouldn't base such a change on the size of ships but the number of drive units...
So for example, a single Adder or Sidewinder having only a single drive unit might only mass-lock you at half scanner range... but as soon as a second one shows up in scanner range, you're locked regardless of the distance... Ships with multiple drive units would mass-lock at scanner range as per normal.

- Neelix

[Zireael]

Neelix, I like your thinking

[mossfoot]

Well if what causes the lock is based on energy output creating interference, it does make sense that more powerful ships and stations will interfere with the drive at a greater range. Same with gravity, which also has a field about it.

But if it's just perceived as an energy source penetrating the bubble at 25k, that's another matter

Your handwavium may vary

[JD]

I would imagine that if that were implemented a lot of things would have to be tweaked so as to make sure the game wasn't too hard or too easy.

Definitely. The Constrictor Hunt mission would need a lot of testing, since a lot of the fighting in that is spent at long range.

That's why I suggested having lasers still do 100% damage out to 50% of their max range.

Max range could even be increased slightly to compensate if that still seems a problem.

My impression of Oolite's Constrictor mission was that it was surprisingly easy. I think others have made similar comments here on the board. (I seem to recall the original Elite version of the mission being tougher.) I certainly like the idea of reduced damage at longer ranges - I always feel I'm cheating a bit when I pick off attackers at max range as easily as close up. The only downside I can see is that it makes it easier for ships to get away once they choose to flee.

[Redspear]

Mass-locking by ships is (of course) important because it stops us missing all the action, but also occasionally tedious because we may have to crawl past traders and the like.

Don't recall this idea being posted before...

Masslock initiates as normal.
Countdown begins (perhaps hidden)
Once countdown is complete (duration v. important of course), should no vessels in scanner range (including player) be engaged or targeted then player is free to reactivate torus.
Planets and suns masslock as before.

Result: You (likely) miss none of the action but do miss the crawl-bys (should you choose to do so).

Possible Handwave: Torus is deactivated in potentially dangerous situations (including mining perhaps?) because should it blow whilst engaged...

[Astrobe]

On the initial proposal: what about using the cockpit temperature as a limiting factor? Equipments would raise a bit this temperature, so it gets more and more dangerous to add equipments (even though one could find quite bizarre that overheating is a problem in space).

On Laser range: One way to "reduce" damage at long range is to add a small inaccuracy to the weapon, so the farther the target is, the more chances you have to miss it (or it could be implemented as a miss chance that increases with the distance to the target). Handwavium: engines and other equipments introduce micro-vibrations that make lasers slightly inaccurate.

A propos, I haven't really played yet with the newer version, but it would be good I think to hide weapon shots visuals when they happen out of scanner range; I've always found it kinda "spoils" the surprise.

Also, as the subject of new and experienced players has been touched in this thread, I'd like to add 2 cents: right now the paradox with Oolite is that it is harder at the beginning, and then becomes easier as you can afford a decent equipment. You have to carefully avoid combat at the beginning, in a space shooting game! It is a bit silly when you think about it.

It might be appealing to those who played the original game, but for younger (sorry) players, if you combine that difficult start with the fact that they must select and install loads of OXPs to get a half-decent game (in their eyes), ... You know kids today install and un-install multi-gigabyte games in a blink of an eye. But those new players could become your OXP writers tomorrow. If you don't scare them right away. Something along the lines of "Fast-track" in the Start Choices OXP should become the "Normal" start, and today's normal start should become a "Classic" start. And if possible, allow meta-OXZs that allow to install a set of OXZs, so that installing the basic stuff that makes the game look good is just one operation.

[Astrobe]

Mass-locking by ships is (of course) important because it stops us missing all the action, but also occasionally tedious because we may have to crawl past traders and the like.

Don't recall this idea being posted before...

Another one: the problem is that Torus drive is designed to shorten travel times when nothing happens, but can also be used to escape bad situations you might put yourself in, so masslock was introduced. Instead, pirates could use a device that prevents you from using the Torus. It could be the ECM device, that could do EMPs as well (which would jam the Torus in some way). An hostile ship who sees you're accelerating fast could fire an EMP to prevent you from escaping.

Another thing that bothers me a bit about Torus drive is that it let you travel faster than light, and there is no visual effects associated to it. Could it be possible to switch on wireframe graphics when Torus drive is in use?

[Zireael]

Another thing that bothers me a bit about Torus drive is that it let you travel faster than light, and there is no visual effects associated to it. Could it be possible to switch on wireframe graphics when Torus drive is in use?

There is the sky dust lines effect when it's used.

And I like the idea, Astrobe!

[Redspear]

Some good points there, Astrobe.

On Laser range: One way to "reduce" damage at long range is to add a small inaccuracy to the weapon, so the farther the target is, the more chances you have to miss it (or it could be implemented as a miss chance that increases with the distance to the target). Handwavium: engines and other equipments introduce micro-vibrations that make lasers slightly inaccurate.

I'm not sure how practical that is but I like the idea in principle.

Re: lasers loosing power over distance (in space)
I'm in the habit of handwaving that as range at which they can still pierce outer hull plating (maybe Mil lasers are better at piercing shields - I don't need to work it out, it's just an excuse to forget about the physics).

Instead, pirates could use a device that prevents you from using the Torus. It could be the ECM device, that could do EMPs as well (which would jam the Torus in some way). An hostile ship who sees you're accelerating fast could fire an EMP to prevent you from escaping.

I considered similar but the trouble with that is that every time you're stopped by ships, you'd know it was pirates. I find it kind of fun to bump into traders and police and all sorts on my travels, just not to have to crawl past them...