Tiared oddity

[Cody]

#194. Tiared (21,124), {73,89} within 7.0 LY. Radius 4629 km.
Corporate State, Mainly Agri. Pop. 4.4 B, Prod. 23232 MCr. HC: 2, TL: 9, Green Bug-Eyed Birds.
Tiared is most famous for its pink Tiaredian Loa' Loa'weed plantations and Zero-G hockey.

Oolite 1.76.1 ... and Oolite 1.77.0.5520

<scratches head>

[cim]

Good spot. Found the cause...

Initial implementation of new string expander, as per
https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12615

A side effect is that it changes the order in which (and so potentially also how many) random numbers are called for in string expansion, and so changes the planet descriptions.

Options:
1) Accept the change, slightly breaking with any OXPs based around the old values, but - as it happens - changing the planet descriptions to those in the original BBC Elite (see the last few sentences of [wiki]Random_number_generator[/wiki])
2) Reject the change, by reverting the string expander changes.
3) Reject the change, by hard-coding all the 1.76 planet descriptions into the core game planetinfo.plist so that the random number changes are irrelevant.

My preference, given the number of OXPs in which the existing planet descriptions are expected, is option 3.

[Cody]

I wonder how many would get changed? I've been out and checked a few of my favourites, and they seem fine.
I kinda like the idea of the original Elite descriptions... but I guess option 3 is best.

[maaarcooose]

In my opinion the planet descriptions need to stay the same.

There's too much in the way of OXP's and fiction that uses what's in those descriptions.

!m!

[Gimi]

Options:
1) Accept the change, slightly breaking with any OXPs based around the old values, but - as it happens - changing the planet descriptions to those in the original BBC Elite (see the last few sentences of [wiki]Random_number_generator[/wiki])
2) Reject the change, by reverting the string expander changes.
3) Reject the change, by hard-coding all the 1.76 planet descriptions into the core game planetinfo.plist so that the random number changes are irrelevant.

My preference, given the number of OXPs in which the existing planet descriptions are expected, is option 3.

I have no idea how many oxp's use this, but if this changes the description to the original BBC Elite descriptions, I would prefer option one. I understand it might be impracticable, and maybe close to impossible given all the oxp's out there, but maybe it's worth investigating..

[Commander McLane]

I wonder how many would get changed?

According to the explanation in [wiki]Random_number_generator[/wiki] only those which contain a random name. That shouldn't be too many.

[CommRLock78]

My two cents: Option #3. I'd like for the planet descriptions to stay the same - I don't want to have new descriptions .

And I would especially miss those planets whose inhabitants have exceptional love for food blenders .

[Diziet Sma]

While I can see a case for getting back to the original descriptions, a helluva lot of effort (still ongoing) has gone into making Povray Planets match the current descriptions... to mention just one OXP probably affected.

[Wildeblood]

The planet descriptions are a joke - they are cartoonish and puerile, and greatly detract from the game. The fact that apparently so many make a fetish of them is really, really, really sad.

Or alternatively, the fact that the few who make a fetish of them are so vocal and strident is really, really, really sad.

[another_commander]

I agree with Wildeblood. The text of the descriptions is in about 95% of the cases there for laughs and certainly can't possibly change the gameplay if it's changed. That's why in the Italian localization, for example, the only descriptions that I deliberately cared to make match/translate with the originals are the ones in the neibourhood of Lave.

The other 5% is probably the ones we need to have a look at and make sure they still work to spec. Those are the descriptions that refer to pink oceans and stuff like that, where in the core game there are specific planetinfo.plist entries to ensure that the planet has indeed pink oceans etc. when its description says so.

[Gimi]

The planet descriptions are a joke - they are cartoonish and puerile, and greatly detract from the game. The fact that apparently so many make a fetish of them is really, really, really sad.
Or alternatively, the fact that the few who make a fetish of them are so vocal and strident is really, really, really sad.

Half agree, half disagree. I like the parts that describes the actual planet. (Oceans, mountains, earthquakes etc.) The rest I ignore.....

[Wildeblood]

On a less grouchy, but more tangential, note... The "random" descriptions seem tuned to the standard galaxy seeds. When using alternative seeds, which I often do, it seems most planets are described as "This is a dull/tedious planet." There is the occasional planet covered in Outlaian Outla-Outlaweed plantations (or whatever), but it seems very few.

[cim]

As an aside, from a programming perspective, I'd prefer to have this information - and all the rest too: tech level, economy, sea colour, vector describing direction of sun from planet, etc. generated from the seed once, then stored in the core planetinfo.plist, because it makes it a lot easier to make adjustments to the system generation routines without having to worry about keeping exactly the same number of RNG calls in exactly the same order, and without having to worry about apparently unrelated changes breaking this.

The planet descriptions are a joke - they are cartoonish and puerile, and greatly detract from the game.

There are certainly a few where the influence of Douglas Adams on Bell and Braben is a little too obvious (but then, the same could be said for the combat ranks), but I find the random generation of the planet descriptions so that they're almost all unique does a far better job of presenting a varied and interesting universe than many other approaches.

Random fact of the day: in 1.76-style generation - I haven't checked if it's also true in the original Elite - there is one government type for which the component "unusual mating traditions" does not appear: Corporate States. That raises a lot of questions in-universe even though out-of-universe it's obviously just coincidental.

I agree with Wildeblood. The text of the descriptions is in about 95% of the cases there for laughs and certainly can't possibly change the gameplay if it's changed.

I thought that about the nebula positioning, too, but that file is covered in comments warning of the need to keep the nebula generation consistent between versions, to the extent of noting that a bug has been preserved for that purpose... similar notes elsewhere for sun colour, and other such apparently trivial stuff.

Tiared got my attention because I know of a few non-core resources which expect Tiared to play hockey. Assassins OXP, though that does set the description anyway, the vector maps which have the Zero-G Hockey Road, which is then incorporated into New Cargoes and BGS-X (and Liners? Or does that only do the G1 spacelanes?). ... and that's just one planet.

I wonder how many would get changed?

At a rough count, about 1 in 11 are potentially affected, though a few of those might not actually change.

The "random" descriptions seem tuned to the standard galaxy seeds.

That's almost certainly true. The Elite-style RNG is not very good for this sort of chain (there are, for instance, 25 sports theoretically possible, but only 6 of them actually show up, and two of those are extremely rare)

[submersible]

While I can see a case for getting back to the original descriptions, a helluva lot of effort (still ongoing) has gone into making Povray Planets match the current descriptions... to mention just one OXP probably affected.

I'm not sure this is entirely true. There is a lot of work in procedural variety in Povray Planets , however none of this work respects descriptions,tech level,economy,government,size,etc. All of the originals were seeded by galaxy number and galactic position with similarly unfair RNG - about 10-20% turn out to be total misfits.

Identifying and fixing those is simple but slightly tedious.

I would welcome a fresher description generator - the originals could be provided as an OXP plist.

[Diziet Sma]

about 10-20% turn out to be total misfits.

Identifying and fixing those is simple but slightly tedious.

Well, those are the ones I was referring to..