Retexture pack Reorganisation?

[Capt. Murphy]

I've recently been updating and remixing my OXP mix on a new machine, and also been looking at all the retexture packs as I was initially having problems with graphics. It got me to thinking that the current position with the various retexture packs is not at all user-friendly as it is not easy to mix and match retexture packs without editting large (and scary for a new player) plists, and the results of installing a pack are not always what a player would expect (e.g. Griff's not changing the default player ship without an additional OXP).

Currently we have Smiv's, DeepSpace and Neolite which all replace the core-set entirely and cannot be used togethor without user-editing.
We then have Shady Sungs which are installed in addition to whatever the core-set is so can be used with any of the 3 above.

Finally Griff's all in one are installed in addition to whatever the core-set is, but does a somewhat cack-handed (sorry Griff!) attempt to suppress the core-set in game so again can't really be used with Smiv's, DeepSpace or Neolite without some editting.

I would suggest a standard format for all the retexture packs in that each should be released in two distinct and clearly documented flavours, one that replaces the core-set entirely (i.e. the shipdata uses the core-set names), and another which adds the set as additional ships (i.e the shipdata uses griff_, smivs_ etc. prefixes.)

If that were the case then it would be easy for any player to mix and match the retexture packs to their hearts content. They would install one as a core-set replacement, and could then install as many of the others as they wish as additions. It would also be an opportunity for each set to include a small worldscript which does nothing, but allows other OXPs to check for its presence and thus identify which retexture packs are installed (and which flavour).

If the authors of the current retexture packs are too busy to consider this I tentatively offer to do the editting to make new versions....(although i've got quite a few bits on my Oolite to do list so it wouldn't be instant).

[Mauiby de Fug]

The DeepSpace set has an alternative plist that can be downloaded somewhere that has the prefixes, but I don't think any of the others do...

[Smivs]

This issue has been vexing me for some time. It would be really good if a simple solution to 'sharing' shipsets could be found.
I had seriously considered using a shipdata-overrides.plist when I released Smivs'Shipset v3 but after much thought decided against it. The main reason for this decision is that my shipset is primarily intended as a direct replacement texture set for the core ships. Much nicer skins on the original models to visualy enhance the game while maintaining originality and authenticity. By using the default ship names this makes the shipset a straight-forward plug-and-play replacement-simple and easy for everybody. Those who have the desire to use several shipsets will normally have the knowledge to edit things to allow this.
I think most people would prefer to just install the OXP and get on with playing. No deciding if you need to add or remove other files...no fuss and no messing about. The only real decision with Smivs'Shipset is as to which edition to use based on your computer's abilities. Low-end computer-Basic Edition with small basic textures. Good computer with on-board graphics-Standard Def Edition. Good computer with graphics card-High Def Edition.
And this touches on why I'm not sure about offering two types as described by Murphy.

I would suggest a standard format for all the retexture packs in that each should be released in two distinct and clearly documented flavours, one that replaces the core-set entirely (i.e. the shipdata uses the core-set names), and another which adds the set as additional ships (i.e the shipdata uses griff_, smivs_ etc. prefixes.)

At first glance it is a good idea, until you realise I would then have to offer six Editions! There's no way that's going to happen - just far too confusing.
As I said at the start of this post, I am aware of the views people hold on this-it concerns me as well-and would be more than happy if a good sensible working solution was developed. I would be on-board with this and quite happy to do what was needed. However, it's a complex problem and I am afraid it will need a complex solution.
More discussion is needed I think

[Capt. Murphy]

Those who have the desire to use several shipsets will normally have the knowledge to edit things to allow this.

I completely understand your reticence given you already have the 3 versions to think about. But I think you are wrong with the above statement. I think a lot of new players probably do dive in and try and install more than one and get frustrated when it it doesn't work as they'd hoped. That was the case for me when I started last year and the result was I immediately started looking into how it all worked, got things set up to my liking, and developed an interest in OXPing. But not everybody has the inclination to start messing around with editting files. It's easy to forget that although most of the denizens of the board probably do have the knowledge to do this, there are probably 100's of other players who never register or post.

If all the retexture followed the formula I suggested then it would really be 'plug and play'.

An alternative would be an 'applying retextures' tutorial where the limitations of the current releases could be spelled out with a walk through of the changes necessary for them to work togethor and/or differently. I'd be happy to do that as-well.

[Smivs]

I think a lot of new players probably do dive in and try and install more than one and get frustrated when it it doesn't work as they'd hoped.

This is often the case, yes. I agree it's far from perfect.

That was the case for me when I started last year and the result was I immediately started looking into how it all worked, got things set up to my liking, and developed an interest in OXPing. But not everybody has the inclination to start messing around with editting files. It's easy to forget that although most of the denizens of the board probably do have the knowledge to do this, there are probably 100's of other players who never register or post.

This is true, and is why I've (so far) kept mine as simple as possible.

If all the retexture followed the formula I suggested then it would really be 'plug and play'.

Again true, but the potential user will still need to understand the ins and outs of the way these things work to be able to decide if they want the 'standard ships' or 'overrides' version, so not that simple.

An alternative would be an 'applying retextures' tutorial where the limitations of the current releases could be spelled out with a walk through of the changes necessary for them to work togethor and/or differently. I'd be happy to do that as-well.

This is one solution, and would also help to inform/educate which could spur others on to try things for themselves, which would be a good thing.

Pondering this all morning, I'm minded to think the 'best' solution would be where all shipsets had an overrides.plist to override the core ship names, like Griff's and the 'override' version of Deepspace ships. This would allow all the sets to work together without further editting, the only downside being that the 'default' textures would never be seen, but then realistically who actually wants them, anyway?
However this would require every shipset to comply, both now and in the future, and therefore requires a commitment by the authors to carry out changes where needed now, and for any future shipset authors to be aware of this convention and to agree to comply with it.
If just one author doesn't come on board the system would fail. Sung seems to have been been off the radar for a long time, and I know Solo has had trouble contacting Deepspace recently about the glow-maps he's trying to add, so the omens are not good.
As I said I'm more than happy to play ball, but only if a universally applied, permanent working solution is to be put in place.

[Capt. Murphy]

Pondering this all morning, I'm minded to think the 'best' solution would be where all shipsets had an overrides.plist to override the core ship names, like Griff's and the 'override' version of Deepspace ships. This would allow all the sets to work together without further editting, the only downside being that the 'default' textures would never be seen, but then realistically who actually wants them, anyway?

The only problems I have with this method is the problems with Griff's which sometimes concern new players - 1) The demoships parade will still start with the original ships unless the core game copy of demoships.plist is manually altered, 2) A new Jameson will be in a core ship unless an additional workaround is done. 3) Even though the game populator won't use the core ships it is possible that another OXP might reference them via like-ship so they can still appear in game.

Anyway we've got replace and addition versions of Shady Sungs now thanks to Micha which I think is a step in the right direction. Having checked it Deepspace is actually already set up the way I'm suggesting - so that leaves Smivs, Griff's and Neolite. Simon B hasn't been around since August but hopefully gets email notifications of PM's...

[Simon B]

I have no problem with people altering anything I have authored here to make them work in better with their games, and they can even redistribute the result to benefit others. As long as such a permissive licence is used, the problem is self-solving. Popular shipsets with annoying replacements should get altered and redistributed even when the official maintainer is long gone.

It may be better to distinguish between modifiable/redistributable oxps and the rest but how would that be done?
Chaotic is probably just what we have to live with unless someone wants to maintain a private repository of only compatible sets.

[Wildeblood]

G'day Simon. Love your work, huge fan, etc. The solution to this non-problem would be for the devs to include your redux squared models and textures into the standard game download, and relegate the era of bland textures to history once and for all. Make the models we now refer to as vanilla Oolite the ones that need to be sought out as an OXP by players who want a retro-look game.

I appreciate the effort put in by the makers of re-texture OXPs, and don't mean to disparage them, but the current situation simply shouldn't exist. There's no good reason why a new player, having just discovered Oolite, should have to find their way through the OXP maze to get decent textures. If the idea of updating the core game's models is too radical for some people then they should at least be arguing for the textures to be replaced with something better, like Smivs' textures.

[Capt. Murphy]

I have no problem with people altering anything I have authored here to make them work in better with their games, and they can even redistribute the result to benefit others.

Thank-you Simon.

If I make a version of Neolite that adds to rather than replaces the core-ships we will be in a position that with a little bit of guidance it should be possible to mix and match all 5 re-texture packs at will. I'll get onto that and a tutorial/walkthrough next weekend.

[Eric Walch]

If I make a version of Neolite that adds to rather than replaces the core-ships we will be in a position that with a little bit of guidance it should be possible to mix and match all 5 re-texture packs at will. I'll get onto that and a tutorial/walkthrough next weekend.

That reminds me that there is still a trivial bug in neolites. One of the ships has a missing texture when using without shaders. Probably trivial because nobody without shaders will install it, but when playing with shaders off, there is always one of the neolite ships that logs errors. (Can't remember which one)

[Lestradae]

It may be better to distinguish between modifiable/redistributable oxps and the rest but how would that be done?

I would suggest that the oxp list on the wiki gets an additional category - under which license the oxp in question has been released.

That would make obvious what the oxp authors' wishes on this are or were and would make many decisions easier to do in consent with the oxp author, be it rework or upgrade to a new compatible version by others, a rework, alternate version or just the use of parts of it.

And there should be the serious suggestion to give their oxps a license if they don't have any. Otherwise no one should complain if others don't know what is expected of them in this regard.

Oh, and code snippets or even 50 lines of script for a mod to use in a freeware game are not under any form of copyright on the whole planet. I asked a good media lawyer about that. So this should really not be made into a problem.

I think this could make things easier and avert unnescessary conflicts before they happen.

[maik]

It may be better to distinguish between modifiable/redistributable oxps and the rest but how would that be done?

I would suggest that the oxp list on the wiki gets an additional category - under which license the oxp in question has been released.

Licensing information is mostly relevant for authors, not for users. It belongs into the OXP. If it is not there, the next place to look for it is the OXP's wiki page or its BB thread. If it is not there either, then see here for restrictions.

The [wiki]OXP List[/wiki], on the other hand, is mostly made for users, not for authors. It uses the agreed upon available horizontal space to the max, there is no room to add information which, for its intended target audience, is irrelevant.

[Griff]

I'm happy to make edits to my shipset so it works alongside the others if we come up with a good solution.
In the meantime, if you want my shipset to work alongside another shipset that's replaced the originals with its own models then just delete the 2 .overrides-plist files from my shipsets Config folder

[Gimi]

I'm happy to make edits to my shipset so it works alongside the others if we come up with a good solution.
In the meantime, if you want my shipset to work alongside another shipset that's replaced the originals with its own models then just delete the 2 .overrides-plist files from my shipsets Config folder

What I would like is for your ship-set to take over more than it currently does. E.g by default replace player ship, the ships in the intro parade etc. I suspect that that might interfere with anyone doing a like-ship with a different texture in their OXP though, as your models are somewhat different. Any way of getting that final touch to your all in one without interfering with other OXP's.

[Griff]

I don't think so, not without editing the demoships.plist inside Oolite's own files to sort out the demoships parade.
Having the player start in an oxp ship sounds fairly simple to do (just needs the OXP ship renaming to "cobra3-player") but if all the shipsets did that - which one would win or would they all merge their cobra3-player ships together into some sort of unholy abomination