An alternate way of looking at uber ships

[Fatleaf]

There are lots of reasons why technologies can plateau, from the cultural to the economic to the physical. Recent human history has seen a lot of technological progress, and it's currently running (in many areas) at incredible rates. Taking a longer historical perspective though I think it's a mistake to see this as a constant of all technologies and all societies – even technological ones – in all ages, not least because we're currently running a little overclocked ... But in game terms this is purely a matter of choice. I see my ooniverse as a fairly static place, with little or nothing new being developed anywhere by anybody: it's a decaying, if not decadent, culture, a downbeat place with all its glory days behind it. Its ships are old, its political structures stagnant. Not a place for heroic virtue: "brave" and "bold" lose out to "sly" and "surreptitious". There's nothing new under these suns, just repeated variations on the same low-key themes.

So just like today's world then!

[Cmdr. Maegil]

it's a decaying, if not decadent, culture, a downbeat place with all its glory days behind it. Its ships are old, its political structures stagnant. Not a place for heroic virtue: "brave" and "bold" lose out to "sly" and "surreptitious". There's nothing new under these suns, just repeated variations on the same low-key themes.

The way you describe it resembles the 'World of Darkness' RPG setting (which I actually like)... but you're right - Oolite is based in a gritty and pragmatic universe. Galcoop is on its decline, with new cracks appearing every time someone comes up with a new system-flavouring or Thargoid-enhancing OXP (Though Guys would be the last drop, representing the complete breakdown of the system); by FE2 it had already completely collapsed.

Still none of this means there won't be companies competing both commercially and technologically, trying to make the most profit possible before the system implodes.

[Cody]

<reads the thread, chuckles, and boards his trusty Cobra Mk III>

[Disembodied]

Still none of this means there won't be companies competing both commercially and technologically, trying to make the most profit possible before the system implodes.

Very true, although – again from my own personal point of view – I'd prefer to see such developments as being something rare and almost hand-made. The corporations won't do it, they're too entrenched in established cosy cartels and cross-ownerships: anything radically new will only come from isolated technical wizards and remote weirdos doing dangerous things in fraught circumstances. A genius engineer might crank together some crazy configuration of ductwork and baffle-plating, to squeeze some more juice out of a drive that was – in theory – already working at capacity. But they're not going to go into production on a mass scale, because they'd be instantly mired in a welter of regulation, lawsuits, death threats and assassination attempts, while simultaneously being ripped off at every turn by corporations too big to sue ... Innovation would be driven underground, available as samizdat, bought – and used – at your own risk. The same could apply to frightening aberrations* such as the Caduceus: cooked up in god-knows-where out of god-knows-what, but hardly what you might call "regular".

In short, even in a stagnant, moribund setting, there's always room at the frayed edges for something unexpected ...

* By "aberration", I'm referring to the Caduceus's disturbing – some might even say monstrous – in-game origins, not passing judgement on how powerful it is as a player ship.

[ClymAngus]

<reads the thread, chuckles, and boards his trusty Cobra Mk III>

As well you may Viejo, yet truly it can be said that the traditional and programming nouveau riche have knocked heads not only in game and in oxp but now in novella too!

Conflict is good for evolution, it teaches diplomacy, tactics, strength or hastens death. All are solutions to the common problem of difference.


Disembodied; if you love something, set it free. If it gets people passionate about oolite, then rip my work to smithereens, all of it. We're talking bums on seats here, not "look at this pretty thing I keep in a box and NO NONE IS TO TOUCH!"

I'm just happy someone liked it enough to turn it into something else. (I still think the fresh turrets could be better scaled) but I put it out there (as do we all); we have to accept the principle (as I know you do) that someone will use our finished canvas as palette for something new. (not necessarily better or worse; just different and new).

[Killer Wolf]

Drew's right - war does lead to massive advancements in technology and yet it also doesn't...

We've been killing each other now with balls of lead accelerated by the rapidly expanding gas of gunpowder (or its modern variants) for hundreds of years now - very little has changed in that respect.

Most ships and vehicles are still powered by some variant of the ICE and have been for 100 years.

Nuclear tech briefly shifted the dynamic - both from an engine point of view (subs and big ships) and mass destruction (threat of) - but all wars since WWII have thankfully been "conventional".

Armour has got better, engines more efficient, sensors more sensitive, weapons "smarter", but all in all, we haven't moved that much.

mmmm, not sure i agree w/ "very little". the speed, range, accuracy and damage potential of projectiles has gone through the roof, as has the ability to fling huge numbers of them at a target. the design of a bullet is actually a very complex thing, as opposed to casting rough balls of lead only 150 years back or so. power plants may be roughly the same design but now they can do things like make planes hover, or hoy a spyplane through the air at Mach x.
just seen a vid of the test flight of the X-47B UCAS too, so there's a big jump too ~ getting rid of the humans on board (!).
relating to that, speed of ships would probably increase (unless there was some limiting aspect of the units themselves, the way you can only get x horsepower out an engine for a Veyron UNLESS you find a way to add 10 radiators to cool it etc etc...and charge people accordingly 8-O ) and i'd expect slightly better laser/missile performance too.

[Cmdr. Maegil]

anything radically new will only come from isolated technical wizards and remote weirdos doing dangerous things in fraught circumstances. A genius engineer might crank together some crazy configuration of ductwork and baffle-plating, to squeeze some more juice out of a drive that was – in theory – already working at capacity. But they're not going to go into production on a mass scale, because they'd be instantly mired in a welter of regulation, lawsuits, death threats and assassination attempts, while simultaneously being ripped off at every turn by corporations too big to sue

You're talking about Benulobiweed, right?

[drew]

I see my ooniverse as a fairly static place, with little or nothing new being developed anywhere by anybody: it's a decaying, if not decadent, culture, a downbeat place with all its glory days behind it. Its ships are old, its political structures stagnant. Not a place for heroic virtue: "brave" and "bold" lose out to "sly" and "surreptitious". There's nothing new under these suns, just repeated variations on the same low-key themes.

Interesting that. I see it in some similar ways, though I see Galcop as the over excessive regulator deliberately attempting to keep the ..ahem.. Status Quo, stifling innovation and trying to keep things in check as the Thargoids up the pressure externally.

This leads (in my fiction) to folks like Rebecca, Coyote, Derik et al illegally customising their vessels to counter the advanced tech that Galcop and the Navy horde for their own benefit.

Thus, in 'my' Oolite game, I have no problem flying a tweaked, but externally standard vessel.

In fact, I sort of do this in real life with my car. It's an old Mazda MX-5... which just happens to have a stage 2 supercharger (200bhp) and uprated brakes and dampers, not that you can tell from the outside...

Cheers,

Drew.

[Cody]

This leads (in my fiction) to folks like Rebecca, Coyote, Derik et al illegally customising their vessels

'You might think that... I couldn't possibly comment!'

[Fatleaf]

In fact, I sort of do this in real life with my car. It's an old Mazda MX-5... which just happens to have a stage 2 supercharger (200bhp) and uprated brakes and dampers, not that you can tell from the outside...

I knew there was a reason why we got along!

[drew]

This leads (in my fiction) to folks like Rebecca, Coyote, Derik et al illegally customising their vessels

'You might think that... I couldn't possibly comment!'

Your secret is safe with me!

In fact, I sort of do this in real life with my car. It's an old Mazda MX-5... which just happens to have a stage 2 supercharger (200bhp) and uprated brakes and dampers, not that you can tell from the outside...

I knew there was a reason why we got along!

He he.. It's the ultimate Q-car. One of my favourite pastimes is taking the uninitiated for a 'spin'; 'hairdresser car' comments are quickly retracted and replaced with 'Sh.... fu... holy cr....!" particularly when I add "Traction control? No... anti-lock brakes? No... LSD for going around roundabouts sideways? Yes..."



Though some people do spot the exhausts...



It does 0-60 in a little over 6 seconds and will hang with a Porsche Boxster S until about 80mph.

Cheers,

Drew.

[Fatleaf]

Very nice indeed. It has a well cared for look which I admire endlessly.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=56.190 ... h&hl=en-GB

Look in street view. Mine is the Alfa 147. But my car only has a turbo...

[drew]

V. Nice. A neighbour has a Spider with something woofly under the bonnet. I like Alfa's.

Funny thing is, my car is nearly 11 years old now and you could buy something identical for about £6-7k with a bit of research, yet folks in brand new or nearly new cars often come up to me and say variations on "I wish I could afford such a nice car..."

Cheers,

Drew.

[Svengali]

I'm aiming for a more pragmatical way now by checking player ships (and NPCs) and will base offering for missions and reactions on that point. I really think we have lost already the base to compare and relate things to each other and I'm not going to try to keep things together anymore, so this is for me the only option.

[CommonSenseOTB]

I've been lurking around and indulging in the odd bit of thread seancing (is that even a word? i.e reading up old/dead threads).

There's the recurring theme of what makes a ship too uber and the uber vs standard debate (which is highly entertaining in its own right - long may it endure).

There's also the question over how one justifies, for example, the improvement of a Cobra III to a Cobra IIIe (or whatever your favourite variant is this month) - where all the stats have been improved and the only negative is a higher purchase price.

I'd like to propose a mechanism to justify this - while I'm sure it's not possible given the current structure of Oolite, perhaps it's worthy of consideration when the core is updated.

At it's simplest, allow attributes of a ship to degrade over time. So in other words, you Cobra IIIe's top speed of 0.375 when you bought it degrades by whatever function you like as time goes on, so for example, after 5 years, you're only getting 90% of the 'new ship' top speed (the actual numbers would need to be determined as a result of balance testing).

This pseudo-degradation would then provide the illusion of technological progress. Presumably, a Cobra variant with a more recent design/build date should be faster than the standard Cobby of 3200 vintage.

The same could go for other components - ECMs could become less effective as time goes on, necessitating the need to upgrade to a better one; older model missiles become less effective; older, less effective components become cheaper in the shipyard as newer, more expensive components become available (and these in turn would degrade as time goes on).

Such a mechanism could also justify the frankly outrageous price being asked for a Fer de Lance - not only are you paying for the genuine walnut cockpit inlay and sumptuous leather seatings, made to measure for all space faring species, you also get rock solid reliability and longevity (i.e. the ship's degradation function is much flatter than, say a cheap as chips Adder) - and from a gameplay point of view, it's that longevity that the player will notice over time.

I don't know....this is just another one of my ramblings while I try to avoid doing actual work

Getting back to what the discussion was about, equipment degrading over time, it's an idea.

What will the player get out of it versus the difficulty to implement versus the effect on gameplay is a thought to ponder.

The player would get more realism, it would be very difficult to implement, another thing for the player to be concerned about that adds no fun factor.

Currently there is already the maintenance overhaul and maybe that is as far as one wants to go for the core game. As an oxp, I suspect very few would add it knowing what it does and the fact that there is already the maintenace overhaul addressing this and would effectively penalize the player twice. With all the oxp equipment available as well as dummy equipment used for hud control, I suspect implementation to be a nightmare for little to no return. Perhaps this idea would be better linked with implementation of crews on ships that could help maintain the ship and prevent an overhaul being necessary or at least doing it when needed for the cost of parts and time only. That said, as an oxp to address this idea of equipment that wears out, on its own, probably not worth the return.

But that won't stop the believer from trying to oxp it, nor should it. If you want it, make it.