Split: Player Ship Lasers

[m4r35n357]

The Energy Bomb in earlier Elite versions was much weaker, unable to kill full-health Thargoid warships -- so there's other ways to balance it besides removing it.

Yeah there is a lot of slagging off of the Energy Bomb, despite it being part of Elite. It ain't a cheat and if you can't handle that aspect of Elite then just don't buy one (eg. I have chosen not to buy a docking computer because I don't want to skip that part of the game, it only takes a little self control, or file editing). It doesn't destroy everything, you can only carry one at a time, and you can't always replace it.
I like to use it just to hear the BGS sound effect . . . crunch!

[CommonSenseOTB]

Hehe! Did it again. Last 3 hours after a couple of beers I came up with an idea that is just too stupid and easy. So I just had to give it a shot and for the last hour I've been flying a player version cobra mk3 that has 2 military lasers side by side on the front of the ship. They fire seperately and have individual laser temps for each. Immersion is on a scale of 1 to 10 about a 7 or 8 and the concept works perfect. Will be no problem for kills to be counted but one just has to watch thier aim not to accidently hit friendlies.

This is a good dogfighting concept as there are checks and balances that prevent more than 2 forward lasers and the player still cannot have more than 4 weapon positions total. The way it's done actually prevents cheat modifications to the lasers. I see this as a balanced concept after just giving it a play for about an hour. What I think I'll do with this is just make reskinned player versions of the classic elite ships that have multiple front lasers, like the iguana, cougar, wolfmk2, and the krait as one might imagine it with 2 front lasers. Also might make some mining ship specials where one of the weapons is a mining laser. Perhaps a mining cobra mk3 and maybe a hunter version of the cobra mk3 like the one I have as a prototype. All lasers in this concept are permanently mounted as this is necessary for some of the immersion reasons. They could also use a basic custom hud for immersion reasons as well to improve aim.

I know from all the post reading about this that it is a heated topic and I'm on thin ice here just to suggest it but this particular workaround is balanced and rock solid but not absolutely perfect immersion wise. Also would add some balance for the player to have a version of an npc ship that has multiple lasers even if on the player version they don't fire at the same time however.

Will start this project tomorrow. Comments? <opens can of worms apprehensively>

[Disembodied]

As with all OXPs, if people don't like it, they don't have to download it ... the only real way an OXP like this can affect other people is by kicking a hole through someone's carefully crafted and balanced mission, but that's true of any number of OXPs. Perhaps it's more true of this one, which effectively doubles a player's firepower, but all I think any mission designer can do is assume a player is, at best, in an iron-assed Cobra III and design their mission around that. If some people find missions becoming too easy, because they've plastered themselves with OXP extras, that's their own fault.

Personally, I don't want twin lasers: to level this out would mean creating a host of super-über enemies, to bring the balance of skill and difficulty back to where it was originally – which sort of defeats the purpose. Also personally, I'd prefer to see people's talents working to deal with what I see as the genuine areas lacking in the game – i.e. Svengali's amazing new trick with special cargo trading – rather than bashing away at bits of the game that were carefully and skilfully balanced in the original.

But there have always been two ways around that problem: either I should shut up, stop whining and do it myself, or I should wheedle, plead and attempt to persuade those with the requisite mad skillz to do it for me.

[Zieman]

Hehe! Did it again. Last 3 hours after a couple of beers I came up with an idea that is just too stupid and easy. So I just had to give it a shot and for the last hour I've been flying a player version cobra mk3 that has 2 military lasers side by side on the front of the ship. They fire seperately and have individual laser temps for each. Immersion is on a scale of 1 to 10 about a 7 or 8 and the concept works perfect. Will be no problem for kills to be counted but one just has to watch thier aim not to accidently hit friendlies.

...

Will start this project tomorrow. Comments? <opens can of worms apprehensively>

I for one would like to have a look on how this is done.

I have a couple of NPC's in my OXP that have multiple lasers, and might want to give one ship like that as a reward for completing a series of missions...

[Mauiby de Fug]

I too would probably be hesitant as to how much is might uber-up a ship, and what one might have to do to re-balance it. But it has always irked me that player versions of ships with more than one laser can still only have one, and being able to fly a multi-laser ship the way it's supposed to be flown would be interesting, just as a test. Or to create a twin lasered ship with some other crippled stats, and to see how much of an advantage it brings...

The fact that you've managed to do this at all astounds me, and no matter what I may think about, as you say, the potential can of worms it may open, congratulations are in order! Like Zieman, I'm intrigued as to how you've managed to pull it off. And I'm of the opinion that no matter what I may think about a particular oxp, if you can create it, there will always be people who will want it, and 'tis their right to customise their ooniverse with whatever oxps they may choose.

[Capt. Murphy]

I'd say go for it, but as MDF suggests only for player flyable ships where the NPC version has multiple front lasers.

[Svengali]

A lot of stuff is possible. Framecallbacks and helper objects are opening this and a lot of other features like autotargetting for additional lasers, etc. But if it's done as a general working feature I'd think it probably will affect/break/change (choose your word) the games mechanisms, because it is not possible to control the environment enough via OXP to keep the native balance intact. It is so easy to 'break' Oolite/other OXPs or to render their features useless.

For my OXPs I'm using a different approach. If a new feature affects other OXPs to much then I'm either treating it as personal test.oxp or implement it only for a very specifc situation, e.g. for the duration of a active mission stage. This way the general gameplay is not affected and players still have a new feature to play with. And I've got quite a few 'features' sitting on my HDD which won't slip in a released OXP, some of them for more then 2 years now, because of their impact on performance or balance. But this has been discussed on and on and everybody has to choose his/her own viewpoint.

For player specific features a good test is to use vanilla Oolite with only this additional feature to crosscheck the impact on gameplay.

Edit:
Just a thought... I'd think ship-designers want multiple lasers for players because of the look and feel (as visual effect), while others will talk about the game mechanics. If this can be done as visual effect only all hazzles and worries about balance are gone.

[DaddyHoggy]

Hazzle? What a fabulous word - I don't even know what it means - but I like it!

[Killer Wolf]

being a builder of multigunned vessels, i'm in favour of the player being able to even the playing field. as others have said, only a ship established as having multiguns should be able to have them though. as long as the feature is available to NPCs then it shouldn't affect gameplay.
other issues come up though : do they draw double the power? What happens if one's damaged? etc

[Disembodied]

as long as the feature is available to NPCs then it shouldn't affect gameplay.

Just because some NPC ships have multiple front lasers doesn't mean that giving them to the player won't affect gameplay. Thargoids are NPCs, but giving the player a Thargoid-style laser turret would still affect gameplay.

Doubling the player's firepower will undoubtedly affect gameplay. Players already have a huge advantage, even with a single gun: we're vastly better pilots, and much better shots. Having double-gunned NPCs affects gameplay in a good way, by making things that little bit trickier: the occasional double-gunned bad guy in the mix adds some spice and strategy to your standard pirate furball. Giving the same advantage to the player can only make the game much, much easier.

[ClymAngus]

This is a very interesting debate, as others have touched on we appear to have 2 lightly conflicting principles here; BOTH of which are core to Oolite, but sometimes don't sit so well with each other.

1) Make and be damned. The experimental sandbox aspects of the game, rely on effort = reward. In that respect NOTHING is out of bounds if it can be made, from
the subtle to the fantastically over the top (Kilit springs to mind). All are worthy as they have all been crafted.

2) Balance. Can an OXP destroy the challenge of the game (and in effect the game itself). Is that a good thing? At surface level probably not, there are names
for thinks that destroy their host and they're not nice. That said there is "choice and tinker" that can be used to balance this out. You don't have to download
and even if you do you can jack open the hood and have a play.

Recently one or two people have been doing exactly that with some of my work. This has ALWAYS been the nature of the HUDs and to my mind is part of the ongoing
process of increasing choice. Is game balance important? yes it is! Is every players view of what consistutes a balanced game the same? I would argue no.

Can people with the oxps available or programming knowledge within, boil down their own pleasingly balanced game. Well it takes a bit of work but yes, I think
they can.

[Disembodied]

I wouldn't want people to think that I'd try to impose my own ideas on what should and shouldn't happen. The game is absolutely customisable and what OXPs I have cannot affect what OXPs anyone else has.

However, I think in some cases, some developments can perhaps overreach the original intent ... Killit is a piece of deliberate satire, but it makes a valid point. But it could be possible to balance this idea out, at least in the publicly released version (those wishing to fiddle under the hood are, as ever, free to do so). How about this proposal:

Due to power management issues, the only way you can get double guns on a (civilian?) ship is if they're both, at most, beam lasers.

That sounds to me like an interesting tradeoff: two simultaneous beam lasers would pack a decent punch, as well as making it easier to hit a target – but you'd lose the long-range sniping and the sheer concentrated impact of a military laser. I might even consider that option myself – at least, trying it out and seeing how it goes.

[Svengali]

but this particular workaround is balanced and rock solid but not absolutely perfect immersion wise.

Tell us a bit more, please...

This is a very interesting debate, as others have touched on we appear to have 2 lightly conflicting principles here; BOTH of which are core to Oolite, but sometimes don't sit so well with each other.

Oolite is open and I think the commonity is open too. In my eyes discussions about these things are only there to help in the process of creating / developing new features - simply food for thoughts. And if there are conflicting principles, even better - generates more input .-)

It is (and was always) up to the creators to decide on their own. And I'd think we have managed it pretty well in the last years.

Due to power management issues, the only way you can get double guns on a (civilian?) ship is if they're both, at most, beam lasers.

That sounds to me like an interesting tradeoff:

Seconded.

[Killer Wolf]

Players already have a huge advantage, even with a single gun: we're vastly better pilots, and much better shots.

lol, speak for yourself!

i still maintain it would work. w/ my OXPs, NPC can have multiguns (or mutliguns, as i originally typed, which sounds like you have a sniggering dog as a co-pilot) and the player can't. coming up against a 5-gunned Diamondback isn't amusing, especially if she's stealthed. also, NPCs already tip the balance slightly by one major factor : there's more of them. a lot more, and often come in packs.

[Switeck]

also, NPCs already tip the balance slightly by one major factor : there's more of them. a lot more, and often come in packs.

There is one minor way to combat that: Follow around a trader group or Viper/s so they get dragged into combat first. Then you can either help them out or flee. Sadly, this doesn't work when you're ambushed at the witchspace beacon.