new device, pirates tool perhaps

[CommonSenseOTB]

I've thought about this a fair bit. It's not typical of my views of wanting variety in game but in this instance I think modifying the Fuel Collector for these purposes is a bad idea.

1) This is a navy invention, correct? The navy aren't pirates so would never develop this way of hacking into a ships computer to get it to release cargo, etc. They would also look at the downside of thier technology getting loose and it's consequences. Giving the pirates another tool to rob ships is not something GalCop would risk.
Also why would GalCop put a lot of hardworking salvagers, many using the Hognose Tugship out of work? They wouldn't.

2) Are we all just so poor that we really need to salvage every cargo cannister and even so lazy that we don't want to run after a few stray cargo containers? Flying after cargo containers to scoop them is a core game mechanic. Maybe get the ship to slow down first(fuel injection off) before you blow them up and you won't have to chase so much.

3) If we want to salvage a ship then let's really SALVAGE a ship. The player wanting to become a salvager would either purchase a suitable ship for towing ships or install some sort of tractor beam(much less effective, more suitable for quick reaction to attacks however). This would require a specific oxp be made. The other possibility is to have computers and equipment to allow docking with derelict ships. All kinds of things can be found on board. For this a real oxp that has a style similar to random hits would be needed to create all the possibilities. There could be a couple of dozen different categories of things to interact with/salvage on a derelict ship and each could have a lot of different specifics created in a Random Hits style. This could be a new career choice if developed properly.

4) Balance requires give and take. If you can get something for nothing it isn't fun. I'm not talking credits for the equipment. There has to be the risk of salvaging, making yourself an easy target in order to carry out a salvage operation. Also the risk of surprises in the derelict ship(small risk) such as booby traps(pirate ships) and stragglers hiding out and think of a hundred other possibilities.

Whatever functionality is added to the Fuel Collector I would ask that it not prevent or make redundant a future salvager-type oxp. Getting a derelict ship to eject cargo should be random at best. Damage may in at least half the cases prevent the ejection system from working at all and what you get may in a lot of cases be undesireable.(sorting through cargo is a job for a salvager on the derelict ship itself) This is only if the computer can even be hacked(less than 65% probably) and doesn't have a booby trap hooked to it(pirate ships would account for most of these cases and perhaps navy/police ships). Another possibility is having your own ship hacked by a virus while interfacing with the derelict ship's computer. Results like some in the Flying Dutchman oxp could result. Different ship system failures intermittently, resulting in purchasing a computer servicing to fix.

Also let's not forget that it can take some time to hack a ship's computer for cargo(this won't be a navy designed addition to the fuel collector anyway, would it?). A third party addition to the functionality of the fuel collector probably wouldn't be as efficient as a navy job. Perhaps it would take as long as 30 seconds in some cases where the computer messages say that it is retrying(for various reasons). Maybe chasing down a few containers isn't so bad after all. Perhaps there is a reason to salvage ships by docking with them and going on board to have a look around, eh?

There is a lot of talent on this board and "someone" will eventually attempt a salvager oxp, hopefully with the intention that it will provide a vast wealth of experience and fun and playability. This kind of thing would be easier to do for the author of Random Hits as this style of mission/event generation would fit nicely here. This would be a considerable undertaking to devote the time needed to do this concept justice but would be well worth it as I believe that most people would find it irresistable to have a peek inside the derelict to look for (whatever?) when it is reasonably safe to do so.

Just my $4.63 worth...


(If nobody tackles this in the next 6 to 8 months then I will give it a shot provided that most of the core hud development I've started is complete. Would probably be a 6 month commitment just to get it right.)

[Lone_Wolf]

The salvage drones from  Deep Space Dredger already need to take over a derelicts computer to put it on autopilot, they seem a more logical candidate to take care of the things described in this thread then the fuel collector.

[Commander McLane]

The salvage drones from  Deep Space Dredger already need to take over a derelicts computer to put it on autopilot, they seem a more logical candidate to take care of the things described in this thread then the fuel collector.

I should have a look into Dredgers.oxp then. I neither have it, nor do I particularly like the whole pretext of salvaging ships (or meeting a Dredger, for that matter).

[Smivs]

.....nor do I particularly like the whole pretext of salvaging ships.....

I don't have the OXP, but it seems quite reasonable to me that there would be those specialising in salvage in the Ooniverse. In Oolite we have trade ships plying the spacelanes, just like the shipping we're familiar with here on Earth, and accidents and disasters will from time to time befall them. However I wouldn't necessarily expect to see a salvage operation in progress, as they would be extremely rare events, as they are today on Earth.

[Commander McLane]

.....nor do I particularly like the whole pretext of salvaging ships.....

I don't have the OXP, but it seems quite reasonable to me that there would be those specialising in salvage in the Ooniverse. In Oolite we have trade ships plying the spacelanes, just like the shipping we're familiar with here on Earth, and accidents and disasters will from time to time befall them. However I wouldn't necessarily expect to see a salvage operation in progress, as they would be extremely rare events, as they are today on Earth.

I agree (hey, I've created the Salvage Gangs ). I just don't see the player involved in this activity, which is what Dredgers.oxp is about. That's why I don't have it installed, and so I now nothing about how a salvage drone works, nor how it's scripted.

[Okti]

At least trying every OXP released and trying to understand it code wise improved my coding techniques, but if the OXP does not suit my ooniverse, I will just uninstall and do not comment on it, if there are better techniques than the ones used in the OXP, I would make suggestions, but first with a PM, not on BB.

[slomoe]

I've thought about this a fair bit. It's not typical of my views of wanting variety in game but in this instance I think modifying the Fuel Collector for these purposes is a bad idea.

1) This is a navy invention, correct? The navy aren't pirates so would never develop this way of hacking into a ships computer to get it to release cargo, etc. They would also look at the downside of thier technology getting loose and it's consequences. Giving the pirates another tool to rob ships is not something GalCop would risk.
Also why would GalCop put a lot of hardworking salvagers, many using the Hognose Tugship out of work? They wouldn't.

2) Are we all just so poor that we really need to salvage every cargo cannister and even so lazy that we don't want to run after a few stray cargo containers? Flying after cargo containers to scoop them is a core game mechanic. Maybe get the ship to slow down first(fuel injection off) before you blow them up and you won't have to chase so much.

3) If we want to salvage a ship then let's really SALVAGE a ship. The player wanting to become a salvager would either purchase a suitable ship for towing ships or install some sort of tractor beam(much less effective, more suitable for quick reaction to attacks however). This would require a specific oxp be made. The other possibility is to have computers and equipment to allow docking with derelict ships. All kinds of things can be found on board. For this a real oxp that has a style similar to random hits would be needed to create all the possibilities. There could be a couple of dozen different categories of things to interact with/salvage on a derelict ship and each could have a lot of different specifics created in a Random Hits style. This could be a new career choice if developed properly.

4) Balance requires give and take. If you can get something for nothing it isn't fun. I'm not talking credits for the equipment. There has to be the risk of salvaging, making yourself an easy target in order to carry out a salvage operation. Also the risk of surprises in the derelict ship(small risk) such as booby traps(pirate ships) and stragglers hiding out and think of a hundred other possibilities.

Whatever functionality is added to the Fuel Collector I would ask that it not prevent or make redundant a future salvager-type oxp. Getting a derelict ship to eject cargo should be random at best. Damage may in at least half the cases prevent the ejection system from working at all and what you get may in a lot of cases be undesireable.(sorting through cargo is a job for a salvager on the derelict ship itself) This is only if the computer can even be hacked(less than 65% probably) and doesn't have a booby trap hooked to it(pirate ships would account for most of these cases and perhaps navy/police ships). Another possibility is having your own ship hacked by a virus while interfacing with the derelict ship's computer. Results like some in the Flying Dutchman oxp could result. Different ship system failures intermittently, resulting in purchasing a computer servicing to fix.

Also let's not forget that it can take some time to hack a ship's computer for cargo(this won't be a navy designed addition to the fuel collector anyway, would it?). A third party addition to the functionality of the fuel collector probably wouldn't be as efficient as a navy job. Perhaps it would take as long as 30 seconds in some cases where the computer messages say that it is retrying(for various reasons). Maybe chasing down a few containers isn't so bad after all. Perhaps there is a reason to salvage ships by docking with them and going on board to have a look around, eh?

There is a lot of talent on this board and "someone" will eventually attempt a salvager oxp, hopefully with the intention that it will provide a vast wealth of experience and fun and playability. This kind of thing would be easier to do for the author of Random Hits as this style of mission/event generation would fit nicely here. This would be a considerable undertaking to devote the time needed to do this concept justice but would be well worth it as I believe that most people would find it irresistable to have a peek inside the derelict to look for (whatever?) when it is reasonably safe to do so.

Just my $4.63 worth...


(If nobody tackles this in the next 6 to 8 months then I will give it a shot provided that most of the core hud development I've started is complete. Would probably be a 6 month commitment just to get it right.)

1) I think that the navy would be able to open up a ship friendly or not but probably not with the fuel collector probably something more like the salvage drone, missle, or whatever you call it!
2) when I destroy a ship it's a bonus to have cargo pods, and I don't mind chasing them down but when I run into a derelict ship I wanted to maximze my profit they shouldn't fly to far away when the ship is still.
3) I love this idea, a new career choice , this is probably closer to what I had in mind, the idea that you could dock with a derelict ship by purchasing a new computer or some type of device is great and that multiple things can be found or started is excellent!
4) that's only fair, things don't always go as planned this is another way that things can become interesting.

Wow CommonSense OTB
This is a much better idea than my original one the salvage OXP I love the idea of docking, going onboard, and finding strange and unexpected stuff that may or may not lead you to another place or even a mini mission. It would be a great career choice much better than just shuttling, fighting or even mining actually you may have to do all of those things to successfully finish a salvage mission! As I've said before I'm pretty much backward on code or scripting but if I can help let me know this could be a great OXP Oh and by the way it was at least worth $5:00
slomoe

[Commander McLane]

Unfortunately my initial test made it clear that my idea doesn't work out. It's impossible to give access to NPC's cargo without messing with Oolite's internal cargo mechanism. The reason is that Oolite's internal cargo mechanism isn't exposed to JavaScript at all.

Any NPC ship has 0 cargo on board until it releases the first cargo container. Only then the number of cargo containers that can be released is determined in the first place.

This means that for an NPC that hasn't yet released a cargo container, JS cannot know how many containers the engine intends to release from it. Much less can JS decrement the number of yet-to-release containers.

Therefore all JS can do is to create additional containers. However, creating additional containers is what I specifically do not want. Thus, at this point, creating a mechanism to access a derelict's cargo and transfer parts of it to the player ship is impossible.

[Eric Walch]

Unfortunately my initial test made it clear that my idea doesn't work out. It's impossible to give access to NPC's cargo without messing with Oolite's internal cargo mechanism. The reason is that Oolite's internal cargo mechanism isn't exposed to JavaScript at all.

Any NPC ship has 0 cargo on board until it releases the first cargo container. Only then the number of cargo containers that can be released is determined in the first place.

That is probably an oversight with the JS implementation. There exists 2 AI methods for dumping cargo.
1: ejectCargo
This is inside the AI area of the code and was always the official method. Ships don't have cargo to start with but this AI method creates the cargo on the fly when

Code: Select all

if ((cargo_flag == CARGO_FLAG_FULL_PLENTIFUL)||(cargo_flag == CARGO_FLAG_FULL_SCARCE))

For populater created traders, one of these two is always set. And since 1.74 you can also define these flags for oxp ships in shipdata (see cargo_carried). This command dumps all available cargo with one command.

2: dumpCargo
This AI method was originally no AI command but added to the white list. It only dumps one cargo item for each call. But this only works for cargo that was already created. In general this will be scooped cargo.

For some reason the JS method only calls above second method. It would be useful when it would have created the random cargo first. (But having a feature freeze, this will stay this way)

[Ganelon]

I think that more possible career directions to explore in Oolite can be good, at least to a point. Both the Dredger and the Salvage Gangs were among some of the first OXPs. I don't make a lot of actual use of either, but some of my credits came from trying the Dredger and some of the gear on my ship was purchased from the Salvage gangs. They have stayed in my game because it makes sense that things like that would exist in the Ooniverse, and I like seeing them and docking sometimes just for the fun of it or to see what they have (or if I might have something in my cargo hold that will fetch a better price out there than at the main station).

Sure, gear bought at a bargain price at a Salvage Gang asteroid may need repairs soon.. But it'll be fine after that and "One-Gunfight-Guarantee™" sort of said it all, now didn't it? Besides, like the Hacker Outposts, they're fun to dock at.

So far as a player being able to go into the salvage business beyond maybe working with the Dredgers, though, I don't see it without needing at the least a special ship. There is just no way a Cobra MKIII should be towing an Anaconda or something with a tractor beam. Sure, somebody can put a trailer hitch on their car, but that doesn't mean they can tow a "big rig" semi. It'd take the player changing over to some sort of tug-boat like a Hognose or something. But that's a very slow sort of ship, and a Hognose has *no* gun mounts. Even if it's packing a few missiles, how would the player survive? How many players would actually want to play a game that slow, with so little defense capability? I suppose it could be done, since pretty much anything *can* be done. But to take it as a career choice, well it's not my style but some folks might like it.

Even escorting a ship back to a Dredger can get pretty tedious and it's not like the pirates in an area will make it easy going.

I would agree with slomoe's original idea, that it should be potentially more profitable to get cargo off an intact derelict than to just scoop what's left after blowing it up. I don't think it such a good idea to keep it to the same limit as what might be found if the ship was blown to smithereens. The best way to limit greed in a game is to balance it with risk. As has already mentioned, the ship might be booby trapped or so damaged that it blows up while you're getting that cargo. Also, one should assume that the distress calls before the crew abandoned and any signals from the escape pods didn't go unheard. Logically, almost every ship for a few scanner lengths in any direction may be heading in. Maybe a couple patrol ships should head out from the main station to investigate as well.

If pirates/scavengers show up, they're going to want some cargo and may be quite willing to settle for what they can get from the wreckage, especially considering that wreckage may also contain your ship and it's contents if you were too close when it blew up. If the authorities show up while you're happily offloading loot to your own ship, they may be a lot less inclined to think it was innocent "salvage" than if you'd scooped a loose container that was floating in the spacelane. Maybe they'd demand that you surrender for an inspection and to answer some questions, and you'd have to decide whether to fight it out with them and take the fugitive status.. Or be taken into custody for perhaps several days (putting you way behind schedule if you had any contracts running) and then they still might confiscate all or part of your cargo before letting you go "with a warning" (offender status).

So what if the player could maybe get 30 tons of cargo instead of 15? If they risk severe damage or "pressing space" from explosion, and the possibility of attack by pirates/scavengers or being taken in for questioning by the police, their luck had to have been good that day for them to get "a fat plum". Sooner or later they'll push their luck too far and come up at a loss. It's the essence of gambling, to tempt them to trust their luck and their skill if they need to fight their way out. I personally think that could be a more entertaining potential than a simple flat limit to ensure it can't ever really be profitable.

Just another .02 credit's worth.

[CommonSenseOTB]

Ganelon, making this kind of oxp in a way where it could be a career but can still interest and provide casual players with things to do and see that are cool will be a considerable undertaking and should not even be attempted unless the oxp author is willing to go all in to develop this concept, whatever it takes. But if done I think you might like it.

Commander McLane and Eric Walch, couldn't the player target the derelict and have the cargo ejection system hacking device hack the derlicts computer by changing/switching the AI of the derelict to a special AI that causes the ship to ejectCargo and then change/switch the AI back again? What is the AI of a Derelict to begin with? What would prevent you from doing this? I'm asking because my knowledge is a little weak in this area.

[Eric Walch]

couldn't the player target the derelict and have the cargo ejection system hacking device hack the derlicts computer by changing/switching the AI of the derelict to a special AI that causes the ship to ejectCargo and then change/switch the AI back again? What is the AI of a Derelict to begin with?

That AI change would be quite easy. Derelicts have a nullAI.plist. Problem is that the command ejectCargo is specific created for traders and generally will only work as expected for populater added traders that became derelict. That are only those traders have those specific cargo flags FULL_PLENTIFUL and FULL_SCARCE set.When an oxp adds ships by the generic trader role and turns them into derelict it will not work. So, I think the overall result will not be satisfactory.

Edit: I just looked into the code. I see that there is an explicit check for the 'trader' role that also makes that oxp added traders have that flag set. So, yes, it should work for any ship that was spawn in a 'trader' role.

[Eric Walch]

I just did a quick test with the console:

Code: Select all

system.addShips('trader', 1, player.ship.position, 10000)
PS.target.awardEquipment("EQ_ESCAPE_POD")
PS.target.abandonShip()
PS.target.setAI("ejectCargoAI.plist")

Where the "ejectCargoAI.plist" is:

Code: Select all

{
    GLOBAL = {UPDATE = (ejectCargo, exitAI);
    };
}

And it worked, the ship released his cargo. But I have no intention to build such equipment myself.

[CommonSenseOTB]

couldn't the player target the derelict and have the cargo ejection system hacking device hack the derlicts computer by changing/switching the AI of the derelict to a special AI that causes the ship to ejectCargo and then change/switch the AI back again? What is the AI of a Derelict to begin with?

That AI change would be quite easy. Derelicts have a nullAI.plist. Problem is that the command ejectCargo is specific created for traders and generally will only work as expected for populater added traders that became derelict. That are only those traders have those specific cargo flags FULL_PLENTIFUL and FULL_SCARCE set.When an oxp adds ships by the generic trader role and turns them into derelict it will not work. So, I think the overall result will not be satisfactory.

Edit: I just looked into the code. I see that there is an explicit check for the 'trader' role that also makes that oxp added traders have that flag set. So, yes, it should work for any ship that was spawn in a 'trader' role.

So this would work for traders' ships and therfore this could be a good pirates tool. That means that this would probably be a device available in anarchies and not sold at the main station, perhaps the local hermit or maybe a gang or something.(or perhaps some shady guy offers it to you once in a while at the anarchy main station via a mission screen, a cargo hacking computer if you will to temp people to try being a pirate or for the hunter who stumbles onto a derelict trader that was under attack by pirates that he destroyed and now he can salvage the trader as it's derelict. hmm...temptation for sale at the anarchy main station like some guy selling watches under his trench coat for a good price, eh. This has possibilities.


Pirates have a difficult job and every job has tools and this could be one of them.

[Commander McLane]

I just did a quick test with the console:

Code: Select all

system.addShips('trader', 1, player.ship.position, 10000)
PS.target.awardEquipment("EQ_ESCAPE_POD")
PS.target.abandonShip()
PS.target.setAI("ejectCargoAI.plist")

Where the "ejectCargoAI.plist" is:

Code: Select all

{
    GLOBAL = {UPDATE = (ejectCargo, exitAI);
    };
}

And it worked, the ship released his cargo. But I have no intention to build such equipment myself.

This gives a partial workaround. But there are still two big problems:

1) Still the amount of cargo carried is only determined when the first pod gets ejected. That means it's impossible to let the player know beforehand how much cargo there is to get. In the OXP you should connect to the derelict's ship computer and be told "there are still n cargo containers on board; do you want to try to release them?". That doesn't work, and therefore no device which can "scan" the cargo of a derelict can be scripted.

2) I did two tests now, in both cases the randomly spawned trader was a Python (I don't know whether this has any influence). In both cases the reaction to switching the AI to ejectCargoAI was the same: I expected the ship to eject one pod, but that didn't happen. It ejected all but one pods. I'd very much prefer single pods. I don't know why one pod remained on the ship.

Hint for other devious scripters: the basic functionality of ejectCargoAI could well be transformed into a Milking Missile, because it also works on non-derelict ships. Thargoid?