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Re: Looking ahead
Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:38 am
by Switeck
Eldon wrote:The cleanest solutions as far as I'm concerned are either:
1) The amount of fuel used is equal to the distance travelled or
2) Accidental misjumps can only happen if you have a galactic hyperdrive or are jumping 4.6 LY or less.
3) Your wormhole reopens when all the thargoids are dead (I know there's a oxp that does this, but it's a bit to convoluted for my tastes personally, introducing jammers and such)
Or how about:
4) You're not the only ship sucked into the Thargoids' trap! Other traders/bounty hunters/etc may have used your wormhole -- not knowing the trouble they were going to get into. If any of them survive, they'll create an exit wormhole you can follow...but it may not lead to the system you were originally intending to go. The smart, fast, and probably weak ones will seek to flee through a wormhole without even trying to fight the Thargoids, so an exit route may be available if you're quick.
Small convoys of traders and even pirates sharing wormholes should be the norm. The buddy system helps keep them alive. If an Anaconda and 6 Cobra 1's misjump, there's still likely to be 6 Cobra 1's with nearly full fuel that can create wormholes.
...But you probably won't have wormhole "hitchhikers" if you're hyperspace jumping far from the main station or even the space lanes!
Re: Looking ahead
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:18 am
by Star Gazer
I'm confused. Why are we not allowed to experience total failure? Isn't it part of real life? There we are doing really well, life is blossoming, and... ...Stuff happens, and we're screwed. Nobody to come and rescue us, no way out, no fault of our doing, nobody to stamp our feet and say it was their fault, just 'that's the way the cookie crumbles'...
But, then I don't get cheating either. This is a game, but surely the best games emulate the risk/chance elements of real life, without them being life threatening! So, we're not actually going to be marooned in intergalactic space for all eternity, we're just sitting there cursing and threatening to ritually disembowel the programmer who incorporated that feature in the game. And, believe me, in Elite, the sudden occurrence of 'pirates have seized your ship on docking' was even more irritating!
At least with misjumps into the far blue yonder you can allow for such a possibility and have a Galactic Hyperspace Drive on hand to zap to another sector. Boring, but there you are, lots of new shiny planets to visit!
Re: Looking ahead
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:30 am
by Cody
What Star Gazer said!
Re: Looking ahead
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:04 pm
by Disembodied
Star Gazer wrote:I'm confused. Why are we not allowed to experience total failure? Isn't it part of real life? There we are doing really well, life is blossoming, and... ...Stuff happens, and we're screwed. Nobody to come and rescue us, no way out, no fault of our doing, nobody to stamp our feet and say it was their fault, just 'that's the way the cookie crumbles'...
But, then I don't get cheating either. This is a game, but surely the best games emulate the risk/chance elements of real life, without them being life threatening! So, we're not actually going to be marooned in intergalactic space for all eternity, we're just sitting there cursing and threatening to ritually disembowel the programmer who incorporated that feature in the game. And, believe me, in Elite, the sudden occurrence of 'pirates have seized your ship on docking' was even more irritating!
At least with misjumps into the far blue yonder you can allow for such a possibility and have a Galactic Hyperspace Drive on hand to zap to another sector. Boring, but there you are, lots of new shiny planets to visit!
It's the difference between game life and real life: we don't have to put up with the irritating parts of real life in a game. The best games emulate, and enhance, the fun elements of real life, including risk/reward, but they also edit out the lousy stuff.
Life isn't fair, but games should be. Unfair games are usually bad ones. There are different degrees and types of "fair", of course: there's Space Invaders fair, where it's one human (with three lives) versus an infinite number of utterly mindless computer drones. The human will, eventually, lose, or possibly at least just give up, but still: the game is playable because it offers a fair challenge.
An unfair text adventure could contain:
Code: Select all
You are in a clearing. Roads lead North and East.
>Go North
You are on a mountain path. There is a cave to the North. Roads lead North and South.
>Go North
A dragon eats you.
==GAME OVER==
A slightly fairer version of the same could be something like:
Code: Select all
You are in a clearing. Roads lead North and East.
>Go North
You are on a mountain path. There is a cave to the North. Wisps of smoke curl out of the cave and adventurers' bones are piled high around the entrance. Roads lead North and South.
>Go North
A dragon eats you.
==GAME OVER==
The problem with the witchspace malfunction is that it can be entirely random. There's no way for the player to see it coming or avoid it: it just drops on you out of the blue. Frankly, it's even worse than the first text snippet above, because it lets you fight the dragon, and maybe even – after an epic battle – win, and then it
still kills you. And it doesn't even out-and-out kill you: it just leaves you to scrabble around, hunting for a way out that doesn't exist, before you finally give up out of boredom or frustration. Undoubtedly, it's emulating real life, in that it's arbitrary, brutal and without any shred of built-in justice – but those are aspects of real life (like the existence of long, boring stretches where nothing's happening of any note which you can't just skip over, say, or the requirement to be polite to neighbours you can't stand, or ... fill in your own
) which should be left out of a game.
Re: Looking ahead
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:04 pm
by JensAyton
Star Gazer wrote:This is a game, but surely the best games emulate the risk/chance elements of real life, without them being life threatening!
Nah. The best games always offer an out, even if it’s hard, so you blame your worthless and incompetent self instead of the designer. That way, you’re motivated to try again rather than send the designer hate mail. :-)
Re: Looking ahead
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:14 pm
by ADCK
Disembodied wrote:The problem with the witchspace malfunction is that it can be entirely random. There's no way for the player to see it coming or avoid it: it just drops on you out of the blue. Frankly, it's even worse than the first text snippet above, because it lets you fight the dragon, and maybe even – after an epic battle – win, and then it
still kills you. And it doesn't even out-and-out kill you: it just leaves you to scrabble around, hunting for a way out that doesn't exist, before you finally give up out of boredom or frustration. Undoubtedly, it's emulating real life, in that it's arbitrary, brutal and without any shred of built-in justice – but those are aspects of real life (like the existence of long, boring stretches where nothing's happening of any note which you can't just skip over, say, or the requirement to be polite to neighbours you can't stand, or ... fill in your own
) which should be left out of a game.
I think that's more a problem with systems/witchspace being 'instanced' instead of being a realistic galaxy, because even if trapped in witchspace you should still be able to point your ship towards the next system and then put yourself in some sort of suspended animation and wait out the few hundred years it takes you to arrive.
Hmmm, maybe Oolite 2 could use some sort of boundary around the witchspace instances so that when you reach it (after clearing away the thargoids) you get ported to the closest system and your clock jumps forward a few hundred years along with some message along the lines of "After many years in suspended animation, you have finally arrived at your destination... But alas adventurer... A dragon eats you."
Re: Looking ahead
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:27 pm
by Smivs
ADCK wrote: "After many years in suspended animation, you have finally arrived at your destination... ."
"The GalCop Science museum has shown an interest in your Cobra Mk III, and would like to offer you a Boa 6 in exchange. You'll find the 1000TC virtual hold and 0.8LM top speed quite useful. By the way you owe 25 000 000Cr in back tax and interest, how would you like to pay?"
Re: Looking ahead
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:13 pm
by CommonSenseOTB
Star Gazer wrote:I'm confused. Why are we not allowed to experience total failure? Isn't it part of real life? There we are doing really well, life is blossoming, and... ...Stuff happens, and we're screwed. Nobody to come and rescue us, no way out, no fault of our doing, nobody to stamp our feet and say it was their fault, just 'that's the way the cookie crumbles'...
But, then I don't get cheating either. This is a game, but surely the best games emulate the risk/chance elements of real life, without them being life threatening! So, we're not actually going to be marooned in intergalactic space for all eternity, we're just sitting there cursing and threatening to ritually disembowel the programmer who incorporated that feature in the game. And, believe me, in Elite, the sudden occurrence of 'pirates have seized your ship on docking' was even more irritating!
At least with misjumps into the far blue yonder you can allow for such a possibility and have a Galactic Hyperspace Drive on hand to zap to another sector. Boring, but there you are, lots of new shiny planets to visit!
Very gifted insight Star Gazer.
The player does have the tools available to deal with the "enemy" of a misjump and the possibility of being stranded. Always follow the practice of carrying a Galactic Hyperdrive. It is no different than playing an RPG and buying an item to deal with that one creature you hope you never meet. Expensive but worth it if it happens. Also one could have a fuel tank installed for extra fuel.
Why does everything in the player's universe have to have a solution that doesn't require the player to prepare
ahead of time? To deal with unforseen circumstances BEFORE they happen?
I think the problem really is that the generation that grew up in the last 20 or so years has been "brainwashed" into thinking they can have everything they want and things will always go their way and they are "special" and now, now, NOW, gimmee, gimmee, GIMMEE!!!(this is of course a generalization, please don't be offended if you are under 20 and aren't "brainwashed" because you have my undying respect and admiration.
)
Is this game for people who want to play a version of Elite that is expandable by oxp or is it for the whiny generation that has to have everything their way with no possibility of failure(there's a REAL fantasy for you). How many oxp creators are there that are "brainwashed" anyway? To make a workaround requires that you get creative and sort of bend the rules. Someone "brainwashed" probably would not even try and just cry at you to change the rules because it's too hard for them. Wahhhh!
The other problem is the "instant gratification" junkies. This is NOT the game for them and to change it to suit them would destroy this game.
The essence of this game is role playing. You want to improve it? ADD MORE roleplaying and more immersion, not get out of jail free cards laying on the floor inside your cell and if there is a way to deal with a situation by being prepared or die then this is ok. Works in a lot of games. No need for a solution that does not require thinking
ahead if there already is one.
Sometimes life is harsh and being prepared can save you.
Re: Looking ahead
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:30 pm
by Bugbear
CommonSenseOTB wrote:
The player does have the tools available to deal with the "enemy" of a misjump and the possibility of being stranded. Always follow the practice of carrying a Galactic Hyperdrive. It is no different than playing an RPG and buying an item to deal with that one creature you hope you never meet. Expensive but worth it if it happens.
Right, next chance I get, I'm buying a galactic hyperdrive. I can't believe I've been failing to practice 'safe witching'. Something to put in Gimlet's Guide perhaps?
Re: Looking ahead
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:39 pm
by Switeck
If you have Fuel Tanks OXP installed, it's a much cheaper solution. If 3 LY extra fuel can't get you to the nearest system after a misjump...carry 2.
Or also get Fuel Collector OXP -- I think it's been fixed to work with v1.75.3?
Re: Looking ahead
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:59 pm
by Bugbear
Switeck wrote:If you have Fuel Tanks OXP installed, it's a much cheaper solution. If 3 LY extra fuel can't get you to the nearest system after a misjump...carry 2.
Or also get Fuel Collector OXP -- I think it's been fixed to work with v1.75.3?
Granted, Fuel Tanks are a cheaper proposition, but Galactic Hyperdrive is Oolite-native.
Re: Looking ahead
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:38 pm
by Disembodied
Bugbear wrote:CommonSenseOTB wrote:
The player does have the tools available to deal with the "enemy" of a misjump and the possibility of being stranded. Always follow the practice of carrying a Galactic Hyperdrive. It is no different than playing an RPG and buying an item to deal with that one creature you hope you never meet. Expensive but worth it if it happens.
Right, next chance I get, I'm buying a galactic hyperdrive. I can't believe I've been failing to practice 'safe witching'. Something to put in Gimlet's Guide perhaps?
I happen to know that Mr Gimlet disagrees. It's a "solution" that's only available to pilots who know this might happen to them in the first place; who have an easy 5000Cr to spare; and who don't mind being forced out of the galaxy map they're currently in, just because the game contains a trap that you can fall into without doing anything at all to deserve it.
A vastly more likely solution – one that almost every player would do, when the game bites them in this way for no appreciable reason – would be to reload the game from saved, after a bout of creative swearing. The best, indeed only, real in-game solution would be to fix this one small piece of duff design, and make the game better.
Ahruman wrote:The best games always offer an out, even if it’s hard, so you blame your worthless and incompetent self instead of the designer.
Re: Looking ahead
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:41 pm
by Mauiby de Fug
I'm with Disembodied on this one. Misjumps can happen at any time. A Jameson could head out of a station and end up there before he's even had a chance to make any money at all. It makes no sense to penalize someone for something that isn't their fault. If there is a way out, even if it is difficult, then that is something a player can aim to do. If he's just left drifting, then what fun is that? Where's the point? It makes no sense...
Re: Looking ahead
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:08 am
by Eldon
If offering a get out option is seen as too easy then it would be "kindest" to send an unending stream of thargoids at a player who doesn't have enough fuel to reach a nearby system. Kill them off so that they can at least "Press space commander" rather than having to pause, begin a new game, then reload their last save (or just quit totally and restart).
If you're going to kill me, have the decency to do it properly please.
Re: Looking ahead
Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:18 am
by DaddyHoggy
Ahruman wrote:Star Gazer wrote:This is a game, but surely the best games emulate the risk/chance elements of real life, without them being life threatening!
Nah. The best games always offer an out, even if it’s hard, so you blame your worthless and incompetent self instead of the designer. That way, you’re motivated to try again rather than send the designer hate mail.
So will you be including an out? (without the need for an OXP I mean or a Gal-HD)