Realistic Shipyards V3.02 in development

[pagroove]

ok, I maybe play it first in full version. But I thought it was just a matter of deleting the models out of the models subdirectory. But it seems to be more complcated. Anyway thnx for the explanation.

[Lestradae]

I see my EDIT came too late

Citing myself: PS, just saw you are writing about the Ultimate Edition. There is a newer version (V3.01) online, for which many things have been fixed and/or enhanced further. Have a look at it by clicking on my signature. The "remove something" routine will work with both versions.



L

[pagroove]

Yeah I was meaning 3.01

[Commander McLane]

The "I don't want this or that ship in my game"-issue is a very basic flaw in the whole Realistic Shipyards-idea, IMO.

Lestradae insists that by including virtually everything he wants to increase the choices of the player. I say that in fact the whole "one big OXP instead of 86 (or whatever the number is now) different small OXPs" reduces choice.

Why that? Because without Realistic Shipyards each player is free to choose which ships he wants in his own personal Ooniverse, by downloading and installing the respective OXPs. And there are a lot of good reasons, why somebody would not want to have certain ships, ranging from simple dislike to hardware-limitations. Personally for instance I don't want to see 'Star Wars' or 'Star Trek' or 'Babylon 5' or 'Farscape' or 'Battlestar Galactica' or any ships from SF-series in Oolite. These belong in other universes. (And I don't find the argument, that in more than 1000 years some afficionados would actually build and mass-produce ship models from 1000-year old SF, very convincing. As far as I know, in our days there are no mass-produced models neither by Leonardo daVinci nor by Jules Verne on the market, which is the closest contemporary analogy I can come up with.)

With Realistic Shipyards, this freedom is gone. "One OXP replacing lots of OXPs" also means "take it or leave it". Of course you can edit two plists and trash a lot of models and textures, but this is not exactly the same as a user-friendly approach. So in fact your choice as player is reduced to "all or none".

[Hoopy]

I have to agree with McLane - I don't want all sorts of uber ships in my game - just the original ones and the few in some early OXPs that are balanced and in keeping with the game (Murghs X Ships I think? It has the boa and python cruiser).

some missions OXPs add ships just for the missions. Fine. But I then tend to remove them to get rid of the funny ships.

Also I think I'm missing the fundamental point of the OXP - I buy/sell ships very rarely and have pots of money. So something to balance up the prices doesn't interest me personally very much. What other core features have I misunderstood?

It's just my personal choice, others will think differently.

[Cmdr. Maegil]

Despite loving the idea of having it easier to download them all at once and the repricing, I still have to agree with this criticism.

If you could split the megapack into say, one with the 'foreign' ships, plus three packs for different skill levels, that'd make things smoother.

Better yet would be a check list for the ships one wanted to install, but I don't think that's possible as yet.

[Lestradae]

Hi all of you,

I said I would not want to enter another discussion of principles ... the Realistic Shipyards V3.01 has been downloaded far beyond one hundred times in five days! (Not counting the older versions, mind you, I`m exclusively talking about the upload that went online five days ago!)

So it seems to me that most of those criticisms come from a vocal minority of people who have been with the game for a much longer time than I have. First it was said that there would be zillions of bugs. Then it was said that it would break the game. Now it`s "its taking choices away".

There are no bugs, there is no game breaking. So, something new it now is.

It`s not taking anyone`s choices away! That`s the whole point of any oxp: Take it or leave it. Nothing hinders you to download only 20 of the zillion ship oxps merged into the Realistic Shipyards and play with them. All those oxps in their original form are still there and haven`t gotten worse in the meantime.

I tried to create a Strict version, but this was a lot of additional work, had a problem with emptying shipyards and creating stderr lists due to ships in the shipyard.plist but not in any shipdata.plist and the feedback from some who write here publicly was partially close to mobbing in my opinion.

Those three things in combination made me discontinue that.

And I have to admit, this makes this debate difficult for me. I am a very open guy, so I will be open to you. I believe I recognise a pattern here. Every time in the history of this forum after, say, 2006, if someone completely new came here out of the blue and did something really new and creative on a big scale (like, say, Charlie with his Kafka scripting or Sung with his textures) they got more or less subtly, yeah let`s say treated mean at the least.

Do you know that there are actually people here on the forums who won`t publish already done material because they fear getting bashed around if they do? And, no, I`m not going to "out" someone, never ever. Perhaps someone wants to speak up on their own, but that`s not my decision.

Is that what you understand under an open community which is conducive to the creativity of its members?

I wanted to answer to your arguments, but while writing I noticed that the issue above has to be resolved for me before I continue debating anything here. I do feel followed and bashed around! And it`s not the first time this happens to someone here, obviously.

I would want to experience a constructive, open atmosphere of creativity here. If that`s not possible, some will have reached their aim with me withdrawing completely letting them develop their little 20-year-old world in eternal status quo without any serious kind of debate about contradictions of opinion.

If "the Oolite project" should stay a little club of ten people who don`t let anyone new in, so be it.

I was very open here, even emotionally, a big risk on an internet forum. So I hope this chance of debating this pattern (and perhaps finding a new solution to it than in the past) will not be wasted.

L

[Cmdr. Maegil]

Hey, don't be so touchy!

We all understand you had a LOT of work to put the shipyards together, and the download stats you keep mentioning are as close as it gets to a recognition on a mostly thankless job.

However, if we're giving suggestions it's because your work did made an impact, and we're trying to help you improve it (sometimes with unworkable or plain silly suggetions ), but it's all in the Oobbs' spirit of friendliness and cooperativeness.
In any case, advices are like OXPs - take the ones you like, and disregard the rest.

[Lestradae]

Hi Cmdr. Maegil!

Hey, don't be so touchy!

That one has been brewing for some time now ...

We all understand you had a LOT of work to put the shipyards together, and the download stats you keep mentioning are as close as it gets to a recognition on a mostly thankless job.

Exactly. Two months of six hours a day, like. And yes, I`d say the download numbers are a recognition. If I was alone with my enthusiasm I`d say OK, I made something only for myself, there are not many other people interested in it - in such a case I might be misguided. But a download every hour for five days of an 85 MB monster oxp speaks a different and rather clear language.

However, if we're giving suggestions it's because your work did made an impact, and we're trying to help you improve it (sometimes with unworkable or plain silly suggetions

Yeah, there are and were quite some suggestions that fell into this category! And I always tried to focus on those and not the ... other ones. But the ones obvously not intending to contribute in the long run (and be it by criticism) have grated on me until it just got too much to take it good-naturedly.

but it's all in the Oobbs' spirit of friendliness and cooperativeness.

From some, yes.

In any case, advices are like OXPs - take the ones you like, and disregard the rest.

That`s good advice - I`ll heed it.

I still think the wider issue I brought up merits attention.

Thanks for your considerate reply

L

[LittleBear]

Well you pays you money and takes your choice! I like the OXP and have it installed, but as my poor old 'puter just can't cope with 85 OXPs in at once (which is what you doing if you download RS) in my install I've deleted all the Models and Textures from RS (so I get the benefit of Lestrade's re-pricing and the suprise of old friends turning up in new roles) and just run with 20 OXPs plus the Config files from RS (which my puter can cope with and still run Oolite at a playable frame rate). I think its very handy (particularly for new players) to have a lot of OXPs in one download. If my 'puter could handle it, it play with the unmodified version in! The Advantage of the pick n mix approach is if your hardware is low end you can put a few packs in and enjoy the game. The best of both worlds really. If you have a top end machine download realistic shipyards for the convienance of all the ships in one easy package. On the other hand, if your computer is a bit weedy, best go for the pick n mix approach and install a smattering of ships individually.

I don't think its a fair complaint really to download it and then say "Hmm don't like that particular ship." Well, thats the point of the OXP to give the ships in one pack! If you want to pick n mix, then download individual ships.

[Baza]

Are System condors supposed to dock 'cause it blocked the entrance to the station. Had to use shift "D" to dock then game crashed on leaving station?

[Lestradae]

Hye.

@Little Bear:

Thanks for your elaborate explanation of how to pick-and-mix with the Realistic Shipyards in. Exactly. I even gave a How-To remove specific ships if they are not liked. So.

I don't think its a fair complaint really to download it and then say "Hmm don't like that particular ship." Well, thats the point of the OXP to give the ships in one pack! If you want to pick n mix, then download individual ships.

Yep, exactly. It`s a bit like buying a car and then complaining that it`s got a motor in it. "I never wanted a motor. Take it out!" What???

You don`t have to buy the car, you don`t have to download Realistic Shipyards. If you are mechanic/scripter enough, tinker with it until it suits you, is my opinion.

Or download a scattering of smaller oxps instead, i.e. buy the car parts seperately.

If my 'puter could handle it, it play with the unmodified version in!

Happy to hear that you are one of the quite many people who obviously enjoy it! Have fun!

@Baza:

Are System condors supposed to dock 'cause it blocked the entrance to the station

Yes they are, and due to their size can cause quite a queue while doing so. You already found a way ahead of the queue: Use shift "D" to dock!

More suicidal and asking for steep piloting skills: Squeeze through by hand

then game crashed on leaving station?

When you say "crash", do you mean your ship crashed into another ship or that the game itself "crashed to desktop"?



L

[LittleBear]

Don't think its a fault with the OXP, its just Oolite assumes that all ships are capable of docking. Big Ships called by a standard role get the standardAI for the type. So a Cop Condor may try to dock (cos its following the standard Cop AI) and get stuck. Its a long standing issue with Oolite. A quick fix would just be to do a couple of alternateAI (Don't mind hacking a few over the weekend L, if you want to use them), that tell big ships to do somthing other than dock (ie replace any switchs to dockingAI in the bigship version to do something else: maybe witch out / park up nearby or head off on a patrol), since if they try to dock they're too big to fit in the docking port, so either crash - or can get stuck if they have high energy levels

[FSOneblin]

Don't listen to the people who are jerks to you. If you don't like it, don't download it. If you don't like it, Then don't post about how much you hate it. Next time someone offends someone, I might have to: 1 try to change the subject or plan B: do something really really random.


No Don't panic: FSOneblin

[Lestradae]

@Little Bear:

A quick fix would just be to do a couple of alternateAI (Don't mind hacking a few over the weekend L, if you want to use them), that tell big ships to do somthing other than dock (ie replace any switchs to dockingAI in the bigship version to do something else

Yeah, sure! I would be thankful! It could be done as a sort of patch, I guess, I could also re-upload the whole thing if a patch would be too complicated for some.

Hm, I have often watched Condors of all kinds dock and while they were doing a bit of a squeezing in they did successfully dock. But if they can get stuck ... an alternative AI for them might be in order.

@FSONeblin:

Don't listen to the people who are jerks to you. If you don't like it, don't download it. If you don't like it, Then don't post about how much you hate it. Next time someone offends someone, I might have to:

You`re absolutely right. If some people continue to offend, I might have to react more offensively. But, I`m not really interested in quarreling. There must be another way to resolve disputes, that has a minimum of respect in it and avoids insults and getting followed around.

Perhaps the forum could use some kind of nettiquette, some basic rules which have to be followed by everyone (like: no insults, no following into every second thread and start bashing), which, if breached, actually have consequences set by the moderators.

Many internet forums have solutions like that, why not this one if this doesn`t work out on its own.

L