Her Imperial Majesty's Space Navy

[Wildeblood]

G8 does have Iron Raven. I'd understood that it was similar to Assassin's Guild - it provides several interlinked missions and colours the galaxy appropriately (adding in the Galactic Stock Exchange, the Naval Weapons Establishment, Jane's Shipyard Intelligence, League of Anarchists, Kosmicheskikh Slyushba Razvedki, various companies, Pleasure World etc.)

Is this "Galactic Stock Exchange" functional? The desire to create a stock exchange in Oolite was the reason I was asking about locking the regular commodities out of the market screen, last week.

[Redspear]

But if the mission is only done well after one has done the Constrictor mission does that not change things? One may already have moved on from the original Cobra to a horrendously-expensive souped-up OXP ship (FdL Lightspeeder anyone?), and non-Thargoid encounters are already a doddle, et cetera, et cetera.

As I said, there are ways around any of these problems but as you've chosen two in particular then lets look at those.

Having it occur after the constrictor mission does stop it spoiling that particular mission but it does detract from the mystique of the ship. So yeah, at least do that.

The ship you mention (from memory) is only superior to the original FdL in terms of speed (despite the wiki blurb, although I could be wrong) and even then it's still slower than an Asp. There are other potent ships out there of course but all oxp.

The oxp arms race that occurred for many years rather detracts from the original set, making them seem obsolete. That's a real shame given that they're the ones with the lore and many of the best low-poly design inspirations, not to mention Griff's spiffy models. Personally, I like that new ships exist within the constraints if not the boundaries of the core ships. Even some of aegidian's ships deviated in that regard...

So you want a ship that's faster than as Asp? Well don't make it half as fast again and certainly not if you're also giving it better cargo capacity, recharge and pretty much everything else. What arguably works for a one off adversary is rectified by that adversaries destruction and its consequent extinction. Putting it instead in the hands of the player (IMHO) throws ship balance to hell.

Of course the proposed oxp is not unique in that regard but what (almost) every game scenario has in common is the presence of the core ships, not the presence of the more, let's say 'capable' oxp upgrades.

[Cholmondely]

Context: I'm writing some missions for this OXP.

The current OXP has a Constrictor that was intended for player missions. What are our thoughts on how this ship could potentially be used in missions? Obviously, there are potential missions doing something in intergalactic space. But I was thinking more about normal space. Could there be a reason for the player to hoon around in a Constrictor? Again, Thargoids in normal space are a possibility. But what about non-Thargoid reasons. Would HIMSN get involved in something local, if that something had the potential to impact on their operations? Or would that be beyond their remit, and if such a situation occurred they'd just inform GalCop and let them deal with it? I'm just trying to avoid too many instances of "Fly there, blow stuff up, fly back". Instead, I'd like things like "Fly somewhere, find something, scan that something (or interact with it in some way), get sprung scanning it, and now blow stuff up". But it's hard to come up with a Thargoid version of that, which hadn't already been done in Cataclysm or one of the other Thargoid mission OXPs.

Let me know your thoughts.

Cody mentioned that
1) HIMSN would only interfere in planetary affairs if some relevant power grab was going on - some regional secession from GalCop for example, or averting a blow-up with GalCop, or a vast incursion of Thargoids too many for GalCop to handle.

2) HIMSN is only concerned with interstellar (not intergalactic) matters. GalCop is concerned with stamping its presence on The Eight (identical stations, etc.). They work together but do not like each other.

Cody feels that backstory is vital and provides a viable reason for things - including the better missions.

[Cholmondely]

As a secondary question, I'm trying to make these missions galaxy independent. But in order to do that well, I kind of need to add a Imperial Navy station to each galaxy, whereas the original vision was just Xeer (G1), Birera (G3) and Xeer (G7). Thoughts?

Cody said that he much prefers not to have permanent bases. He prefers something Redspear's mobile Superhubs. He personally dislikes carriers on principle (including the Komodo).

[cbr]

t.b.h. the carrier would make the most sense as a movable base of operations...



Perhaps a smaller temporary base.

[Cholmondely]

t.b.h. the carrier would make the most sense as a movable base of operations...



Perhaps a smaller temporary base.

I rather agree with you. Cody's opposition seems to be purely personal (he's seen too many people begging for carriers in other space games over the decades). But Redspear might also be hesitant for other reasons (Although he is probably unaware of your super retexture of the Komodo).

Not so sure about your fuel station, though. Even if you do end up emblazoning it with Digebitian whatnottery!

[phkb]

I've had a bit of a think about the issue and have come up against a brick wall. Here's a summary of where I see everything:

1. HIMSN is intended to have an *almost* invisible presence in the galaxy. So, if you know where to look, you can find a base or two, but they aren't advertising their presence anywhere, and if you do find them, the "STRICTLY NO ENTRY" signs are up in every way.
2. HIMSN was intended to have missions. That was clear from the outset, and it was the one part of the Gal Navy OXP that everyone enjoyed.

These missions were going to be designed to be similar in nature to the core missions, in that they aren't selected from a bulletin board, but you are given a mission screen informing you of the mission goal after you dock somewhere, you then go and complete said mission, and any rewards are given to you at your next dock.

The issue I see is that there is no gameplay value to *any* of the stations built into the OXP. If the missions are designed to be accepted and completed at any GalCop station, then the stations have no point, other than as eye candy. And while I'm as much of a fan of eye candy as the next pilot, I'm also trying to design something that uses the assets various members have contributed to this OXP over a lot of years. If the solution to the problem (of needing to dock semi-regularly at a Imperial Navy station of some sort) is to add *another* station, mobile or otherwise, then again, what is the point of the ones already in the mix?

It just seems such a waste for all the work that has gone in to texturing and configuring these bases for them to be essentially completely unused, and probably in large part never even seen by players. In fact, you could argue that it might even be better if the stations weren't in the game, because that leaves it up to player imagination, and giving physicality to what you've previously only imagined is likely to disappoint some players.

[Redspear]

In fact, you could argue that it might even be better if the stations weren't in the game

All you've said there makes sense I think and to me at least it highlights a broader design issue with oolite: the main station.

In short it's designed to have everything you might need partly as a legacy of it being the only place you might go.

Having other things to do in other places means you need new stuff or the appeal wears off very quick.
Contracts, trade, equipment, shipyards, even most missions direct you back to the main station.

I think one possible 'solution' (if this is indeed the problem) might be to split them up.

Want a new ship? Why would the main station have empty anacondas lyng around taking up space? Head planetside instead where space is much less of an issue.

Special parcel delivery? Isn't that more likely from (as well as to) a small outpost that doesn't get regular traffic, like a rock hermit perhaps?

Military lasers shields and whatnot? Doesn't it make more sense if their sale was conrolled by military organisations and that your reputation with them might be a requisite towards their aquisition?

Yes, it's seldom ideal to change the status quo like that but imagine if you were designing oolite from scratch: you've got the lore, the assets and sufficient foresight (hindsight in this case) to see what's coming in terms of oxps. Would you still default all of those things to the main station?

Maybe we have to in the absence of oxps but why can't those same oxps occasionally take from/override what's available where?
Of course they can, so maybe there's your solution... or maybe not, I don't know

[Cholmondely]

I've had a bit of a think about the issue and have come up against a brick wall. Here's a summary of where I see everything:

1. HIMSN is intended to have an *almost* invisible presence in the galaxy. So, if you know where to look, you can find a base or two, but they aren't advertising their presence anywhere, and if you do find them, the "STRICTLY NO ENTRY" signs are up in every way.
2. HIMSN was intended to have missions. That was clear from the outset, and it was the one part of the Gal Navy OXP that everyone enjoyed.

These missions were going to be designed to be similar in nature to the core missions, in that they aren't selected from a bulletin board, but you are given a mission screen informing you of the mission goal after you dock somewhere, you then go and complete said mission, and any rewards are given to you at your next dock.

The issue I see is that there is no gameplay value to *any* of the stations built into the OXP. If the missions are designed to be accepted and completed at any GalCop station, then the stations have no point, other than as eye candy. And while I'm as much of a fan of eye candy as the next pilot, I'm also trying to design something that uses the assets various members have contributed to this OXP over a lot of years. If the solution to the problem (of needing to dock semi-regularly at a Imperial Navy station of some sort) is to add *another* station, mobile or otherwise, then again, what is the point of the ones already in the mix?

It just seems such a waste for all the work that has gone in to texturing and configuring these bases for them to be essentially completely unused, and probably in large part never even seen by players. In fact, you could argue that it might even be better if the stations weren't in the game, because that leaves it up to player imagination, and giving physicality to what you've previously only imagined is likely to disappoint some players.

My understanding is that the current unfriendly docking experience is a place-holder for something better. Hence the current "no gameplay" value.

Personally speaking, I would


1) use the several stations. Disembodied and Cody were pointing out that one cannot just "walk into" a military base. But I have. I used to get haircuts on an RAF base close to home, years ago.

Perhaps one needs an "introduction" from an agent (need to have completed the Constrictor and another vanilla game Navy mission). Perhaps Captain Curruthers (Added to PAD after completing Constrictor mission) sends one an e-mail with instructions to meet him at a station with directions for getting there? Or he meets you and gives you an ASC marker of some sort? Or you get an escort?


2) Use the Komodo carriers as mobile stations situated in interstellar space at the sites of recent (or expected) Thargoid incursions.


Note - introducing Cody's tension between GalCop and HIMSN makes GalCop main orbitals an unlikely base for a permanent HIMSN presence.

[Cholmondely]

In fact, you could argue that it might even be better if the stations weren't in the game

All you've said there makes sense I think and to me at least it highlights a broader design issue with oolite: the main station.

In short it's designed to have everything you might need partly as a legacy of it being the only place you might go.

Having other things to do in other places means you need new stuff or the appeal wears off very quick.
Contracts, trade, equipment, shipyards, even most missions direct you back to the main station.

I think one possible 'solution' (if this is indeed the problem) might be to split them up.

Want a new ship? Why would the main station have empty anacondas lyng around taking up space? Head planetside instead where space is much less of an issue.

Special parcel delivery? Isn't that more likely from (as well as to) a small outpost that doesn't get regular traffic, like a rock hermit perhaps?

Military lasers shields and whatnot? Doesn't it make more sense if their sale was controlled by military organisations and that your reputation with them might be a requisite towards their acquisition?

Yes, it's seldom ideal to change the status quo like that but imagine if you were designing oolite from scratch: you've got the lore, the assets and sufficient foresight (hindsight in this case) to see what's coming in terms of oxps. Would you still default all of those things to the main station?

Maybe we have to in the absence of oxps but why can't those same oxps occasionally take from/override what's available where?
Of course they can, so maybe there's your solution... or maybe not, I don't know

Some good ideas here.

Some of it Phkb has already implemented. Refuelling outside the main orbital (Fuel Tweaks oxp). Maintenance done on the planet (PlanetFall2). And you have your New Lasers with vaguely similar intent (but not yet planetside, one presumes).

But buying Military Lasers/Shield enhancement only from military stations (HIMSN, Behemoths, Anarchy Sentinel stations) makes a lot of sense to me. As does buying new ships planetside (perhaps severely restrict the quantities on sale in the main orbitals?).

[Redspear]

makes a lot of sense to me

Not disagreeing, just using your quote to make a point...

Making sense is cool but too often the main consideration by my estimation.
Find the gameplay then shuffle it around to make sense.

So I recently said that vipers in corporate states having livery and others not makes no sense. If that's what's really wanted then find an excuse.

Maybe only the corporates can afford the new vipers and other systems can only afford refurbished models. Of course you'd have to get around some non-corporates also being rich but there could be a reason.

Whatever sense it be seen to make should be in service of gameplay over realism.
If that's true then starting by considering the gameplay rather than what might be expected might yield better results.

That's my opinion at least.

[cbr]

Code: Select all

Trader mission:

Trader with adequate reputation gets special contract to haul cargo from station x in system x to one of the HIMSN bases.
This contract grants him temporary access to the base.
Based on the importance of cargo (fuel, machinery, weapons, unknown, etc) perhaps even gets HIMSN escort(s) from station x to the base.

Such a mission would:
Enable the player to visit and see the HIMSN base with purpose
Enable the player to see the HIMSN ships ( escorts / base )
Enable the player to make some credits
Enable the player to be a target based on the importance of the cargo

[Cholmondely]

makes a lot of sense to me

Not disagreeing, just using your quote to make a point...

Making sense is cool but too often the main consideration by my estimation.
Find the gameplay then shuffle it around to make sense.

So I recently said that vipers in corporate states having livery and others not makes no sense. If that's what's really wanted then find an excuse.

Maybe only the corporates can afford the new vipers and other systems can only afford refurbished models. Of course you'd have to get around some non-corporates also being rich but there could be a reason.

Whatever sense it be seen to make should be in service of gameplay over realism.
If that's true then starting by considering the gameplay rather than what might be expected might yield better results.

That's my opinion at least.

I'm just a dumb pilot, here. But I want to see more OXPs - and I'm specifically interested in those which add to my immersion - which usually works for me in terms of believable additions to my game (so no Gates, thank you. Or Escort Decks, Leesti is Moon or Cargo Shepherds.)

But that's me. I'm not writing the bally things. I just get to enjoy the fruits of the labours of those who do.

For those who do: you yourself, phkb, Wildeblood, Killer Wolf, Griff, etc. I rather suspect that you are all motivated by rather different things. Ideals of gameplay. Or interest about intricacies of the code. Or introducing a particular look or sensation into the gaming experience.

Whatever the motivation, I (lucky me!) get to enjoy the fruits of your labours and introduce them into my game.

[Redspear]

Whatever the motivation

Right, they're oxps: if you don't like it then don't install it.

The tendency to base oxps on other oxps however (or especially to try to accommodate all oxps where possible) can make things increasingly problematic from a design standpoint.

Find the gameplay then shuffle it around to make sense.

Is essentially a recommendation to free up design by putting the idea (fun part) first over the justification (not fun) for its existence.
Whether I myself might think it's a good idea or not is (and I would suggest should be) completely irrelevant to anyone who enjoys whatever comes from it.