Crazy(?) idea for Witchdrive Fuel Injectors

[mohawk]

I found myself flying backwards once - Newtonian stuff.

Seriously I like Newtonian-ish not real Newtonian!
Just for the Immersion!
I like the flight patterns and the gameplay the way it is, but I would also love:
fuel cost/consumption relevant to mass, thrust and pitch/yaw effected by cargo load, fuel consumption for acceleration/deceleration/manoeuvring/energy production, and of course the Shelton slide.
And last but not least the asteroid space billiards game!

[Redspear]

what if we could make the injectors a little more Newtonian?
And by that I mean use fuel only to accelerate and decelerate.
Maybe if you hit injectors with the speed set to max, then speed remains at 7x without consumption (It makes sense) until you reduce your speed below 98% where fuel is consumed to decelerate the ship to normal speed.
oxp only of course

If this makes things too easy for the player, we could make any speed alteration consume fuel, and even manoeuvring too.
or even energy generation.

That sounds like it would make it a 'no brainer' to escape mass-lock or pursuers whenever you wished and not particularly need to consider the fuel gague.

Don't mean to 'rubbish' the idea, it does make sense and could be very interesting but I think it needs a bit more in game strategy to it's implementation or fierce use of the retrictions that you have suggested. It's nice to retain some sense of dilemma: 'should I use it now or not?'

I like the flight patterns and the gameplay the way it is, but I would also love:
fuel cost/consumption relevant to mass...

In terms of fuel injectors I think that can now be done relatively easilly, as (I think) can my original idea at the top of this thread.

Hmm, I should perhaps give it a try. So, thanks for the 'resurrection'

[mohawk]

That sounds like it would make it a 'no brainer' to escape mass-lock or pursuers whenever you wished and not particularly need to consider the fuel gague

Well I have to agree, but the escaping mass-lock part of this statement I think that is the point.
I see what you mean about the escaping of pursuers though.

but to my defence, ExtraFuelTanks.oxp and FuelStations.oxp kind of have the same effect to the game.
I have been using the extra fuel tanks for a long time now, and I don't feel that they break my game.
of course I could be missing a lot of the thrill of the fuel gauge monitoring, but everything is a matter of preference after all

but I think it needs a bit more in game strategy to it's implementation or fierce use of the retrictions that you have suggested

I agree also about the in game strategy. I was just making some suggestions to compensate for the "fuel free injection speed" . Could be less strict, or different after all.
Now that I think of it there could be complications, like what if fuel is exhausted while accelerating and you can not reduce speed? or what do you do if you run out of fuel and can not move or steer etc (valid concerns for a real spaceship, but not so much for a game )

My position concerning fuel in the game is that the effect of it being depleted, is too severe . You can not run and you can not fight.(not with any efficiency in my honest opinion) so you are as good as dead, especially in the early stages or the game.
Furthermore, it gets boring not being able to escape mass-block to the point that some times I just quit and start again. (I don't always have time to spare)
I like options to exist regarding fuel so that fuel exhaustion should be a strategic error in the game. My fun is in the fighting, and fighting In my opinion needs fuel. (more fuel than running usually)

It's nice to retain some sense of dilemma: 'should I use it now or not?'

well during fighting there is a lot speed alteration that would actually result in a lot of consumption , but still that would not change the "free flight from fight effect"

In terms of fuel injectors I think that can now be done relatively easilly

It would be nice however it could result in bigger ships having a disadvantage. Maybe a slight difference between loaded and unloaded ship would be more appropriate

Anyway just some thoughts. cheers

[Norby]

it gets boring not being able to escape mass-block to the point that some times I just quit and start again. (I don't always have time to spare)

This is one of my fighting areas: I made [wiki]VariableMasslock[/wiki] and [wiki]TimeControl[/wiki] so far. The last need the OXP developer version of oolite which is mostly equal with the stable game but allow a not perfect time acceleration.

In Oolite 1.82 we have new possibilities. For example injectorSpeedFactor allowed to set up to 32x and injectorBurnRate to 0 so I can imagine a solution which sometimes allow to use Injectors as a masslockfree Torus. The problem is the compensation due to "a bit" uber if allowed without restrictions.

what if fuel is exhausted while accelerating and you can not reduce speed?

A rough plan to make some Newtonian momentum:
-raise maxSpeed to 7x (like Injectors),
-set injectorSpeedFactor=1 so Injectors acts as boosters to reach the max. speed faster than using the limited (or even further limited) thrust of the normal engines, burning fuel to accelerate but not for keep up the speed,
-raise injectorSpeedFactor to 7 when speed is below max. (else no booster effect),
-if torusEngaged then restore maxSpeed to avoid a 7x32=224x uber-Torus,
-when the player press slow then reduce maxSpeed in FCB with about the same speed than accelerating with injectors and consume fuel meantime to simulate a breaking engine (like the reversed thrust mode in jet planes) which provide better deceleration than the normal thrust - now without this slowing down an anaconda from 7x speed need 15 seconds.

[mohawk]

A rough plan to make some Newtonian momentum:
-raise maxSpeed to 7x (like Injectors),
-set injectorSpeedFactor=1 so Injectors acts as boosters to reach the max. speed faster than using the limited (or even further limited) thrust of the normal engines, burning fuel to accelerate but not for keep up the speed,
-raise injectorSpeedFactor to 7 when speed is below max. (else no booster effect),
-if torusEngaged then restore maxSpeed to avoid a 7x32=224x uber-Torus,
-when the player press slow then reduce maxSpeed in FCB with about the same speed than accelerating with injectors and consume fuel meantime to simulate a breaking engine (like the reversed thrust mode in jet planes) which provide better deceleration than the normal thrust - now without this slowing down an anaconda from 7x speed need 15 seconds.

It Sounds great.
2 things that I notice:
1) ships would be able to slowly accelerate to 7x speed without injectors.
it can be fixed of course although I am not sure that it is that bad
2) the speed gap between max speed and 7x max speed would be bridged and you could set a speed in between those 2.
personally I like it, although I am not sure about the effect in the game. It could make things easier for the player

about the deceleration, is the frame call back necessary? could we not set the injectorSpeedFactor to negative?
or set it to 0 and when the button is pressed increase the thrust, and just remove some fuel?

[Norby]

1) ships would be able to slowly accelerate to 7x speed without injectors.
it can be fixed of course although I am not sure that it is that bad

I think the thrust over the original max. speed must be reduced drastically else nobody will use fuel to accelerate, which equal with a big cheat when just multiply the max. speed.

2) the speed gap between max speed and 7x max speed would be bridged and you could set a speed in between those 2.
personally I like it, although I am not sure about the effect in the game. It could make things easier for the player

I do not think the new half-injector speed is a bonus, you already can earn about the same by short bursts. The big help is the high speed without fuel usage, I think to compensate this some way, for example only the straight movement will not consume fuel, but consume the original amount when use the controls to change your direction - your ship draw a curve which need injected thrust.

Without fuel the ship should keep the big velocity vector and flip back only. This is possible by forcing the vector in FCB.

could we not set the injectorSpeedFactor to negative?

No, both the linked wiki document and an error message in a quick test declare that must be between 1 and 32.

or set it to 0 and when the button is pressed increase the thrust, and just remove some fuel?

Set it to 1 and the button press is not detectable directly so when the speed changed since the last frame then increase the thrust and remove some fuel, yes.

This is not a small project so I don't guess when I will start to implement, which is the reason why I tell my thoughts - maybe somebody will be faster than me.

[mohawk]

I think the thrust over the original max. speed must be reduced drastically else nobody will use fuel to accelerate, which equal with a big cheat when just multiply the max. speed.

I Agree

I do not think the new half-injector speed is a bonus, you already can earn about the same by short bursts. The big help is the high speed without fuel usage, I think to compensate this some way, for example only the straight movement will not consume fuel, but consume the original amount when use the controls to change your direction - your ship draw a curve which need injected thrust.

I also totally agree. But maybe consume less than original amount, or depending on the turn (if possible to make such distinction ) also rolling wouldn't be much influenced from the inertia. pitch and yaw of course would.

one more thing that we should take into consideration is that although the player will be able to keep injection speed without consumption, the very small thrust, means that he will have to burn fuel for any acceleration so maybe it is not that much of a cheat after all.

Without fuel the ship should keep the big velocity vector and flip back only. This is possible by forcing the vector in FCB.

maybe when the ship has no fuel and the speed is more than original max speed the "navigation aid" will reduce the pitch and yaw of the ship so that it always faces the inertia vector. but when there is fuel, the computer uses injection to turn in the normal rate.(as we said before)
we could say that the original max speed is the manoeuvring speed were the ships avionics can compensate for the centrifugal force without fuel injection.
the flip back that you mentioned means that the "navigation aid" is overridden and the ship turns manually away from the inertia vector.
sounds like what we were discussing here: https://bb.oolite.space/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=17327
perhaps the 2 could be combined!
But I would prefer this to be done deliberately with a key press like with an equipment activated, even if fuel is available. Otherwise it could be making steering confusing

Hm now that I think of it when the fuel is exhausted and you can only steer slowly, maybe a flip back to shoot your perusers would be cool. but only 180 degrees, otherwise things could start getting confusing, sliding uncontrollably to a direction that you can't really know

so if there is no "nav. aid off" button installed, maybe the nav computer could automatically flip you 180 degrees when you have no fuel and you are speeding over manoeuvring speed, and maybe change view to aft with full pitch up (if that can be done )

This is not a small project so I don't guess when I will start to implement, which is the reason why I tell my thoughts - maybe somebody will be faster than me.

Actually in the beginning I was thinking about giving it a go, but the whole thing is getting too overwhelming. It would take me an eternity of trial and error, and tears and frustration, not to mention that vectors and FCB, look to me as confusing as thargoid poetry.
so I think that I will wait for some real programmer to do it, and cheer all the way

Only thing I can do is share my thoughts (for those that might find them useful )
cheers

[Norby]

the original max speed is the manoeuvring speed were the ships avionics can compensate for the centrifugal force without fuel injection.

Very good idea and simplify the code since maxPitch is writable. Just must be all OXPs handled together which manipulate this data to avoid problems: [wiki]Towbar[/wiki] and [wiki]EscortDeck[/wiki] already slow it when the ship hold a big mass.

The "flip back" is much more complicated as you see so better if handled as a separated project and discussed in the other topic.

maybe a flip back to shoot your perusers would be cool. but only 180 degrees

I can live without this due to switching to the aft laser is similar.

[mohawk]

Very good idea and simplify the code since maxPitch is writable. Just must be all OXPs handled together which manipulate this data to avoid problems: [EliteWiki] Towbar and [EliteWiki] EscortDeck already slow it when the ship hold a big mass.

I'm glad you think so.

My first thought about simply implementing free injector speed, was to make the injectorBurnRate = 0 and make a timer that removes fuel 0.25 per second when speed is between maxSpeed and 7x maxSpeed
but I like your idea more. It is more holistic, and gives solution to the question why only burn fuel above maxSpeed.
It also makes :
- player burn fuel to accelerate from 0. otherwise it is very slow, which makes some compensation for the "free injector speed"
- possible to set speed to anything between 0 an 7x maxSpeed which is a nice feature now that I think of It.
- gives a penalty to the player for using up all fuel, with slow acceleration deceleration, but gives a way to still navigate. (No sliding to your doom helplessly when you run out of fuel like I was thinking in the beginning)
- gives the player a way to still escape mas block and survive attacks even without injectors, but with the penalty of slow/dangerous deceleration and almost no steering.

maybe my initial thought could be used for npcs though (if it is not stupid) because it would not change anything in their behaviour, so the AIs can remain intact.
maybe even the minimal pitch - very low thrust penalty could be implemented if they run out of fuel while above maxSpeed. but only once since the AI would not let them accelerate more than maxSpeed again (easier this way I think)

Now. About the Towbar and EscordDeck. Do they use maxPitch or FCB? I thought they were released before version 1.81!

Ignore this if it is nuisance, but if they are changing the maxPitch/maxYaw, then perhaps it can be stored in a variable, before alteration, and then manipulated like: maxPitch = (variable name) / 3. and then restored when needed. the problem is, what happens for example if the Towbar gets broken before the speed gets to manoeuvring? Will it restore the pitch/yaw to the Initial?
EDIT: oups! I just realised that you are the author of all of them soooo... yeah you know better


It would most certainly be incompatible with Q-charger though

EDIT2: (I just write them as they come in my mind.) the speed indicator in the HUD would probably need some adjustment for the 7x speed. and certainly some indication of the manoeuvring speed. very slow thrust would require some indication of the "set" speed and the actual speed so that adjusting speed would not become confusing.
now that I think of it I am concerned that there would be a lot of accuracy needed from the speed throttle and joysticks could be having trouble coping with it.

The "flip back" is much more complicated as you see so better if handled as a separated project and discussed in the other topic

You are very right it should be a separate thing.

Maybe someday you can make an oxp bundle like pseudo-NewtonianBundle.oxp. With VariableMassBlock, TorusToSun, FarPlanets, SensibleFuelConsumptions, and InertiaSlide
If you like those names (I just pulled them out of my guts )

[Norby]

About the Towbar and EscordDeck. Do they use maxPitch or FCB?

EscordDeck use maxPitch (since implemented in trunk), Towbar use FCB but slowdown is disabled by default due to caused shaking at some users (not at me) but planned to reimplement using maxPitch.

It would most certainly be incompatible with Q-charger

No, due to [wiki]Q-Charger[/wiki] use velocity boost without speed changes.

the speed indicator in the HUD would probably need some adjustment for the 7x speed.

No, I tested in debug console, the length of the bar reduced well when maxSpeed is changed.

and certainly some indication of the manoeuvring speed

I am not sure what you mean but both the slower thrust and pitch is easily detectable by the slowly changing speed and direction so I think these are not need a new bar.

very slow thrust would require some indication of the "set" speed

There is no "set" speed, until you press accelerate or decelerate you see the earned changes in the speed bar, just very slowly. Your speed is always the actual speed.

speed throttle and joysticks

I think the game handle these well, this is not an OXP thing.

pseudo-NewtonianBundle.oxp

I already made enough bundles, but maybe others will do it if worth it.

[mohawk]

I am not sure what you mean but both the slower thrust and pitch is easily detectable by the slowly changing speed and direction so I think these are not need a new bar.

No I just meant that if the max speed is set to 7x, then there should be a mark in the speed bar in the 1/7 of the total. so that the player can know if he have gone more than the original max speed. Surely there is no need and no space for a new bar