Pirate Centres

[Norby]

We started to search a solution to keep players in space lanes in this thread.

[wiki]DeepSpacePirates[/wiki] is similar but very player oriented due to spawn pirates from nowhere and not designed to stick to the lanes.

An enough thick net of pirate ships or mass-locking asteroids simply need too many parts to be maintainable, so we still not have any solution within the core rules, but if we allow longer detection ranges then numbers could be dropped greatly to a reasonable level, which sounds like a new OXP.

Pirate Centres are man-made asteroid fields with lurking bandits within the space lane triangle.

Scout Drones has visual detection ability (4x scanner range as with your eyes) are patrolling near space lanes where no Pirate Centre nearby to give additional cover of detection. These are defended by nearby pirate groups.
Discursive lines show detection ranges in this sketch:


If a ship leave any lanes then will be intercepted by 3-4 pirate groups shortly.

Alternatively asterod fields can hide a Gravity Scanner which detect traders up to 10x scanner range and will relay to pirate groups if a ship leave the safe space lanes. In this way less pirates (marked with ligthning) and drones enough:



About 30 drones, 15x2-3 fast pirate ships and 3 asteroid fields can turn an average system surely enough fearsome to traders should use space lanes, I think.

What do you think?

[Diziet Sma]

What do you think?

It may be a workable solution.. best way to find out would be to test it, I think.

[Ranthe]

Sorry, I think I'm missing something here - if the idea is to "encourage" players to use the main lanes, then why are we littering the witchpoint - station lane with Scout Drones that are there to alert pirates of potential prey? If that's the case, I'd definitely be swinging off-lane just enough to bypass the drone detection ranges between witchpoint and station if the alternative was running the gauntlet of pirate clouds and drones...

[Zireael]

The pirate center and drones shouldn't be present on the witchpoint-planet route unless it's an Anarchy. The other two routes are fair game. (Well, personally I wouldn't allow them in Corporate States at all)

[Diziet Sma]

Sorry, I think I'm missing something here - if the idea is to "encourage" players to use the main lanes, then why are we littering the witchpoint - station lane with Scout Drones that are there to alert pirates of potential prey? If that's the case, I'd definitely be swinging off-lane just enough to bypass the drone detection ranges between witchpoint and station if the alternative was running the gauntlet of pirate clouds and drones...

The diagram could be a little clearer, but I think the idea is that the detection-zone of the drone-asteroids would be located just outside the main lanes, so that if anyone swings off-lane, they would be detected.. not so that ships in the lanes would be detected.

The idea is to make the lanes the better option for travel, and discourage bypassing the lanes.

However, I don't really see that the Pirate Centres need such large detection zones.. I'd rather see their detection range reduced, and some of the drone-asteroids moved somewhat closer towards the ends of the lanes. Otherwise, you'd need much more complex code to determine if detected traders were actually heading off-lane, and hence marked for interception, or staying on-lane, and thus meant to be left alone.

[Norby]

@Ranthe: there are no pirates nor scout drones in space lanes, these are lined up about 4x scanner range from the centre of lanes, making vitrual walls around them. The diameter of safe lane is planned to 2x scanner range. Places around witchpoint are guarded strongly except the two exit to the planet and sun so you should try to break out from lanes later only.

@Zireael: in Anarchy these are still make walls only but contain more armed ships. In Corporate State there are no Centres but more Drones and a few pirates still exists, I think GalCop has better things to do than pursuit unarmed scouts, especially if these are not used by pirates only but by civilians also.

@Diziet Sma: thank you for the supporting words. I made a better sketch into the first post to show wider lanes and your conception with reduced detecton ranges of Centres. This case can be imaginable with pure visual detection (without Gravity Scanner), the slightly better range around Centres still comes from the same visual detection (4x) but summarized from more eyes near the edges of clouds.
This way use more drones and pirates but still reasonable imho and more conservative so I prefer it, thanks.

[Zireael]

Thanks for the new pic, it makes the idea MUCH clearer!

And yeah, if the drones are outside of lanes, then the idea is VERY good.

[hiasakite]

Norby et al,

I feel this is a good idea, and could be used in conjunction with the revised AI and pirate frequency in 1.79 etc to make the lanes 'relatively' safer in the safer worlds..

[Redspear]

One potential problem here (and please forgive me if I've missed something in your explanation Norby)...

The map is 2D, but space (of course) isn't.

Are those dotted circles the extent of the drones/pirates reach?
If so, what's to stop a pilot pitching 90 degrees up or down to head safely off lane, torus-ing far enough away from the lane and then getting a clear run to wherever he/she likes?

Perhaps the map is only 2D for clarity, but in that case it wouldn't it require many more pirates and drones than that to make it work?

This is a nice idea but (if I understand it correctly), it is actually creating a lane outside the lane we currently have. It might still be safer/less time consuming in some instances to fight your way out of the lane and then torus safely in from there. One potentially nasty fight but after that you'd be sure of a safe run to the station (or wherever).

I think this kind of approach has the problem that it creates more work for the system populator.

Norby, could the areas that you've drawn on your map, rather than being areas pre-populated by drones/pirates etc. merely be zones of probability?

What I mean by that is rather than populating them before the player goes off lane, could they instead be created only when the player goes off lane?

Elite had no lanes as such, it would just randomly generate ships to be wherever the player was (essentially all the ships that were ever in the game would always occur within the player's scanner range).
Could an area of space be given a probability for generating pirates/thargoids/whatever in this manner?
If once they disappeared off scanner (and visual range perhaps) they were gone then would that be a big problem? Maybe they used thier torus drive in an unknown direction , or in the case of Thargoids, we could put it down to their mastery of witch-space (as I think cim hinted at in the thread linked at the top of this one).

Anyway, thanks for illustrating your idea and getting us all thinking; I need some help with that ...

[Dawn Trader]

This is a personal view only:
I have been looking and reading... we have enough pirates thank you very much. Space is and should be basically empty with a small probability of encounter. To force me to stay in the space lanes means that I would not have a chance to explore and find some of those hidden bases, asteroids, etc.

I find it disturbing that there are so many that want to change the flavor of the game. These people are not satisfied with keeping OOlite as OOlite but want to make it into something it ain't. You can make these as an OXP but do not change the core. As a hard core believer in the game, Find something else to do that enhances the game without becoming legalistic over how space is used or how ships from other games are infesting this game. Not interested in frontier, star wars, etc .
'nough said.

[Captain Tylor]

I personally feel that the only change should be to have other ships occasionally going outside the lanes as either pirates or other traders as surely the main problem of leaving is lack of police protection. Also some times a fur ball can take you out of the lane.

[Norby]

Perhaps the map is only 2D for clarity, but in that case it wouldn't it require many more pirates and drones than that to make it work?

Yes, need more ships in 3D, over and below lanes also which result double numbers.
Circles means something about detection, but the whole sketch is an example only, many other arrangements are possible and much less ship in better governments can leave many holes.

Breakthrough is possible if player take some risk, but need find the balance where it is not so hard nor too easy.

I think this kind of approach has the problem that it creates more work for the system populator.

I tested in my Gallery OXP, my i3 can add about 100 ships in a second, so player will suffer a small delay at hyperjump if we do all at once. A smother solution is to add the visible ones only and spread out other additions in small groups in the first few seconds, in this way I think there will be no noticeable delay.

The whole idea is an answer to cim's question when asked a solution without adding ships later like Elite does (which is already available in [wiki]DeepSpacePirates[/wiki] OXP).

You can make these as an OXP but do not change the core.

It is a plan of an OXP, I can not change the core at all. Any core changes need long time due to must be discused expansively before the core team make any decision, so I think we are in good hands.

some times a fur ball can take you out of the lane.

If you choosed to join into the fight then it is not a problem. If you want to arrive safely and a ship suddenly attack then can be a problem due to you can run into two direction only. The worst if you are in a no through road: you see laser flares in both way. Until you are alone then you can wait but if someone attack you then no other choices than fight and try to break out. But if we make good balances then this will be usual in Anarchy systems only.

[Redspear]

I think this kind of approach has the problem that it creates more work for the system populator.

I tested in my Gallery OXP, my i3 can add about 100 ships in a second, so player will suffer a small delay at hyperjump if we do all at once. A smother solution is to add the visible ones only and spread out other additions in small groups in the first few seconds, in this way I think there will be no noticeable delay.

The whole idea is an answer to cim's question when asked a solution without adding ships later like Elite does (which is already available in [wiki]DeepSpacePirates[/wiki] OXP).

Well, if you're testing it then that's got to help

I always thought that DeepSpacePirates added stuff just outside the lane (i.e. soon after you've veered off it, after which you could travel for ages and not encounter anything???. I think I've misunderstood how it works, when I get the chance I'll take another look at it. Thanks

This is a personal view only:
I have been looking and reading... we have enough pirates thank you very much. Space is and should be basically empty with a small probability of encounter. To force me to stay in the space lanes means that I would not have a chance to explore and find some of those hidden bases, asteroids, etc.

You said it's a personal view, so I'll try to bear that in mind...

Would you like that 'small probabilty of encounter' just in the lanes or would you like it everywhere? Because at the moment (without oxps) it's only in the lanes.
Forcing anyone to do anything doesn't sound like fun, and maybe some of the suggestions have headed towards that but this started out trying to address the core game dicrepancy between the lane (encounters) and off-lane (no encounters at all). This is highlighted by the 'cheat' of going off lane as soon as you reach the system and then torusing in, encounter-free, every time.

I find it disturbing that there are so many that want to change the flavor of the game. These people are not satisfied with keeping OOlite as OOlite but want to make it into something it ain't. You can make these as an OXP but do not change the core. As a hard core believer in the game, Find something else to do that enhances the game without becoming legalistic over how space is used or how ships from other games are infesting this game. Not interested in frontier, star wars, etc .
'nough said.

What constitutes the 'flavor of the game'? I suspect it might mean different things to different people.
As Commander McLane eloquently put it recently, 'Oolite is the spiritual successor to Elite'.
I would agree with that and yet we have fuel injectors, passenger bays and cargo contracts; and weren't those last two things from Frontier? ...along with being able to trade in your ship to buy another? They certainly weren't from elite and yet they have been widely accepted as part of Oolite.

What was the first working release of Oolite? How does it compare to 1.77 or 1.79?
Oolite has changed, it continues to change. I would have thought that one of the key purposes of this forum would be to discuss how it could continue to develop and then to decide if it should develop in any of those directions.

Right now, 'these people', are discussing various alternatives to see if we can find something that could work a bit better than the current situation. Along the way we'll probably see all sorts of ideas only to rule out most of them as unworkable, impractical or even ideas that might make things worse. That's one of the great things about a forum: If you've got an idea then many others can mull it over and give you some feedback. Maybe it goes somewhere good, maybe (often) it doesn't, but it's the discussion that helps that process and (when reaching a general consensus) makes it productive.

As a hard core believer in the game, Find something else to do that enhances the game without becoming legalistic over how space is used or how ships from other games are infesting this game.

By 'becoming legalistic', do you mean telling people what they can and can't do?...

Enhancing the game is, I think, the goal; but then that tends to mean changing it in some way doesn't it?

What unites us all is that we care about the game.
For some it's reliving Elite as they wish it had been when they first played it, for others, it's just a damn fine space game. One of it's greatest areas of appeal is just how easily moddable it is. Much of this can be done through oxps but not all of it.

Your Ooniverse, your way. Thank you Giles!
Hopefully we can all respect that, including your wish not to be forced to stay in the lanes.