Oolite Flavours

[hiran]

We have a thread that is bringing up lots of constructive topics, yet it is riding too fast for each of them to be considered enough.
The discussion about sets of OXPs that could make up a flavour of Oolite is amongst them, hence I am opening a dedicated thread. Today we only offer vanilla. Let's add strawberry and chockolate next and think of more esoteric combinations later.

The idea we had here was that to novice players we should not just offer the plain game (aka vanilla) but also alternatives that are enriched with state of the art graphics, a nice combo of equipment, missions or ships to make Oolite more attractive for novice/casual players. Experienced players would probably open up the expansion manager directly to manage their set of expansions themselves.

So here is the last meaningful status we had in that discussion:

For OXP preselection we need to agree on a few (two or three):
- One with lots of military action.
- One with lots of trading options.
- One with missions.

All of them should have great graphics, of course.

Would that make sense?

How about these? (initial thoughts, standing on one leg...)

These are chosen just for G1 - the assumption being that by the time the player gets to G2 they know enough to make their own choices about individual oxps
00) Better Graphics pack (Griff packs asteroid & station packs, Povray Planets G1, Normal and Specular+Gloss Maps for Oolite v1.88+, rings, sunspots, ZygoUgo Nebulae, BGS, FPO Lave, FPO Zaonce, ZygoUgo's Explosions)
0) Information pack (XenonUI, Vimana-X, Ship's Library, etc. - in effect the Addons for Beginners (Vital Statistics) ).
1) Thargoid pack (Extra Thargoids, Thargorn Threat oxp, Second Wave OXP, Wormhole restoration OXP)
2) Pirates pack (DeepSpacePirates, GalCop's Most Wanted, Renegade Viper, Spicy Hermits, Pirate Coves OXP)
3) Allies pack (Behemoth, Paddling Pool, Enhanced Vipers, Total Patrol)
4) Planets pack (Redspear/Spara's suite with SfEP)
5) Strangers World (difficult)
6) Elite Trader (easy)
7) Politics pack (Commies, Anarchies, Feudals, Dictators, Free Trade Zone, Ring Racer, Diplomancy, Superhub, Torus, Z-GrOovY Small System Stations)
Solar Systems Pack (FPO Lave, Lave Academy, FPO Zaonce, Tionisla OXPs - 4 TOGYs, TCA & Tionisla Reporter, Tianve, Riredi, Taranis etc)
9) Missions Pack (G1 Missions: Random Hits, Rescue Stations, Asteroid Storm, Long Way Around, Scourge of the Black Baron, Taranis, The Collector, Tionisla Reporter)
10) Crummy Combateer Collection (Paddling Pool, Start Advice, Start Choices, SniperLock, SniperLock Fix, Fast Target Selector, Combat Simulator, Lave Academy, Fuel Collector)
11) Masslock & Docking Issues Collection (needs a ponder...)
12) Oolite Trading collection (Risk-based Economy, Risky Business, BlOomberg Markets, Smugglers, Illegal Goods Tweak OXP, Market Observer, Market Inquirer, Commodity Markets OXP, In System Trader)

I've yet to take a good luck at Phkb's & Redspear's offerings and work them in

[phkb]

Care needs to be taken with the choices. Something like "GalCop's Most Wanted" comes with the requirement of installing the "Bounty System", which radically changes the way bounties are handled.

But in principle, this could be a good helper for new players. The downside is how you communicate what is included for anything outside of graphical updates. Each pack would need, at the very least, it's own wiki page (which we do for any OXP, so not a big hurdle) that contains a summary of all the changes that the selected OXP's will make to the game, and potentially a "why" section, detailing why that OXP was included. Will the player read those pages? Maybe. But at least it will be somewhere to go if the player is confused by changed gameplay.

Obviously, this is going against the previous recommendations of only adding 1 OXP to your game at a time, but that time appears to have passed. That recommendation, I think, came out of the original target audience for Oolite, which was largely players of the original Elite game, and who were already invested in the game world. I think there are a lot fewer of us around now, and the more modern player doesn't want to invest a lot of time tweaking and fiddling with OXP's, adding some and taking some away to achieve their ideal gameplay experience. Having some curated gameplay experiences, that have their content clearly telegraphed, could be very beneficial for gaining new players, and perhaps even new developers.

[phkb]

Further: I think some of the choices might need an update or two. For example: Pirate Coves spawns ships via the "shipWillExitWitchspace" world event. That pretty much means you can't save your game at those Pirate Coves. And because you *can* save the game at default Rock Hermits, you will end up confusing the player (ie. "Why can't I save my game here?"), and make it feel like the game is broken.

[arquebus]

the more modern player doesn't want to invest a lot of time tweaking and fiddling with OXP's, adding some and taking some away to achieve their ideal gameplay experience.

I think that the modern player (at least some high percentage) would be very much like the modern Skyrim player in terms of OXPs/mods. Namely, pile on as many as you possibly can until it breaks, then back away until it works. The "thousand mods" Skyrim player is a trope at this point. They want an experience as rich as possible, as detailed and deep as they can get it. They like new gameplay options and mechanics, they like new places to visit, and they want all of it at once, often without ever playing the vanilla game.

You know... me!

I doubt there will be very many new players who would chafe at all at their first experience being curated with a fairly sizable number of OXPs that are known to play well together and add a diverse set of additions/improvements/replacements.

[hiran]

For new players I do not believe changes to the original game do matter. After all, what would they measure against if they never played Vanilla?

So actually we have some expansion sets already:
- Norby used to have his beginner's collection.
- Arqaebus already shared an expansion set also.
- Cholmondely did a collection as well but I do not recall it's name.

Do we want to give them different names? Should they not follow a theme each so it is easier to explain when to pick one over the other?

[phkb]

For new players I do not believe changes to the original game do matter. After all, what would they measure against if they never played Vanilla?

It becomes crucially important when trying to (a) explain what's going on, and (b) debug something that's gone wrong. I get it that new players probably won't care, but the lines are starting to blur (if they haven't faded out already) between core game and modded game. As someone who is trying to keep a foot in the mod camp as well as the core game dev camp, it makes my life... well, challenging is probably the best way to put it!

[Cholmondely]

Just to clarify - I worked on two collections:

1) Addons for Beginners (Vital Statistics) - adding in information OXPs such as Market Observer & Galactic Almanac
- adds in extra information to help play the game

2) Lore Collection (Classic Elite) - adding in TOGY, TCA, Deep Space Dredgers, Generation Ships etc.
- adds in the stuff mentioned in Classic Elite lore (the Manual & the novel)
- it leaves out Murgh's Lave OXP because his graphics don't mesh with Griff's (this is significant).

[Switeck]

1) Addons for Beginners (Vital Statistics) - adding in information OXPs such as Market Observer & Galactic Almanac
- adds in extra information to help play the game

I highly recommend...
oolite.oxp.cim.comms-pack-a.oxz
In the Addons for Beginners due to making the Oolite universe seem more friendly, at least for the traders -- as they often offer to make wormholes for others.

[Cholmondely]

1) Addons for Beginners (Vital Statistics) - adding in information OXPs such as Market Observer & Galactic Almanac
- adds in extra information to help play the game

I highly recommend...
oolite.oxp.cim.comms-pack-a.oxz
In the Addons for Beginners due to making the Oolite universe seem more friendly, at least for the traders -- as they often offer to make wormholes for others.

The "AddOns for Beginners" is Norby's - it has these oxps:
Ambience Collection (50 oxps and which includes cim's "Comms Pack A" and is also by Norby)
AutoRefuel
Combat Simulator
ETT Homing Beacon
Miner Cobra
Neo-Docklights
Lave Academy
Target Autolock
Tionisla Reporter
Traffic Control
Reverse Control
Ring Racer
Safety Catch
Start Advice
The Collector
Welcome Mat

"Ambiences recommended by Norby" also includes his "Ambience Collection" (which includes cim's "Comms Pack A").

[hiran]

1) Addons for Beginners (Vital Statistics) - adding in information OXPs such as Market Observer & Galactic Almanac
- adds in extra information to help play the game

I highly recommend...
oolite.oxp.cim.comms-pack-a.oxz
In the Addons for Beginners due to making the Oolite universe seem more friendly, at least for the traders -- as they often offer to make wormholes for others.

Would that mean we can converge to at least three flavors (not discussing the exact content of them right now):
- vanilla
- lore
- newbies

That would be some progress already.

[hiran]

Would that mean we can converge to at least three flavors (not discussing the exact content of them right now):
- vanilla
- lore
- newbies

That would be some progress already.

From another thread another idea:
Have one to show off the most sparkling graphics, strangest ships but remain easily playable. We could call it Smoothie?

[Cholmondely]

Would that mean we can converge to at least three flavors (not discussing the exact content of them right now):
- vanilla
- lore
- newbies

That would be some progress already.

From another thread another idea:
Have one to show off the most sparkling graphics, strangest ships but remain easily playable. We could call it Smoothie?

And put what in it?

Griff's newest together with his retextures (missiles, for example)?
Some of the nicer replacement stations (Torus, Globe, Octahedron & Tetrahedron)?
Povray Planet textures. Maybe with some FPO mixed in?
ZygoUgo's various offerings?
Phkb recently revamped Generation Ships?

Deep Space Dredgers look dated to me, as do many of the ships & stations in our systems oxps.

And I really wish that we had more decent textures for Rock Hermits.

What else?

[hiran]

Would that mean we can converge to at least three flavors (not discussing the exact content of them right now):
- vanilla
- lore
- newbies

That would be some progress already.

From another thread another idea:
Have one to show off the most sparkling graphics, strangest ships but remain easily playable. We could call it Smoothie?

And put what in it?

Griff's newest together with his retextures (missiles, for example)?
Some of the nicer replacement stations (Torus, Globe, Octahedron & Tetrahedron)?
Povray Planet textures. Maybe with some FPO mixed in?
ZygoUgo's various offerings?
Phkb recently revamped Generation Ships?

Deep Space Dredgers look dated to me, as do many of the ships & stations in our systems oxps.

And I really wish that we had more decent textures for Rock Hermits.

What else?

Looking at the screenshots thread it looks like we have people who still care about graphics. Would it help to direct their efforts towards the dark spots? Make the game look like one instead of little unmaintained contributions?

[Cholmondely]

This is a colossal red herring - but you asked...



There's the modelling - and then the texturing.

Cbr has been decent enough to help out with the second - he does not do the first. He did the textures for HIMSN and a couple for Xeptatl's Sword.

Griff (high-poly) and Murgh (low poly) do both, but tend to focus on whatever takes their fancy nowadays, both having been very active in the past.

And then there are a couple who started revamping the older OXPs but got nobbled by the witchspace lobster (GearsNSuch with Commies - he published the ships but the stations still need doing; Jackiebean with Galactic Navy).

Phkb has been busy churning away behind the scenes - he has updated Dictators, Generation Ships, the Globe & Torus stations, Lerelace's Taranis station, and the entire Tianve system (and he just recently re-posted the Nuit station - I don't know what he did to it).


The crummy-looking stuff to my mind is as follows:

Feudal States ships look a bit tired. Unsure about the Royal Hunting Lodge.
Commies stations need a facelift.
Anarchies' Phoenix looks crummy - and I wonder if the Hognose-towed ships & the sentinel stations need some TLC
Galactic Navy Destroyer & stations look horrendous (but Amaranth provided a new destroyer model)
Deep Space Dredger and ships (Fury, Sabre, etc.)
Lave OXP needs a high-poly facelift. And more ideas to make it more interesting/relevant.
The Assassins Guild gives flavour to G7 - but the stations! The stations!! (I've not really noticed the ships)


Whines
1) Rock Hermits. Griff's RH looks good - but very individual/specific. Should not there be rather more variety in the cosmos?
2) Raxxla!
3) An Imperial Astro-farm as originally envisaged
4) More stuff about religion - Missionaries is great, but there could be so much more...

From my wiki user page:

The following G1 systems call out for dramatic depth and politics:

Lave (already has Monument, Lave Academy, the moon, the planet)
Tionisla (already has TOGY, TCA and Tionisla Reporter mission)
Scandal-ridden Onrira (Obnoxicorp story)
Larais's industrial orange haze (what lies hidden there?).
Tianve (Pulsar & station) - fixed by Phkb
Riredi (Captain Beatnik's superb station)
Lerelace (Taranis HQ and mission)
The relationship between Lave and Zadies (both homes to significant bits of GalCop).
Ceesxe TL 15 vs backwards Lave & Zadies (TL5 & TL9) - might this be a possible fight for prestige?
Xexedi vs Laenin (home of the Comoonin) - and Laenin's three chums (Terea, Oresri & Xeoner)
Teorge Home of the humanoid clones (The Dark Wheel), the Shulth dynasty (Oofiction) & 3.3 Billion (tedious) Black Bony Lobsters (Elite/Vanilla Oolite description)
Communist Vetitice & Inonri and Communist Usanat & Entizadi vs the bridge systems in-between
Stuff about some of the more colourful "famous planets" (eg Aesbion's invasion of Aronar).

Edited to change Riredi/Coluber station to Lerelace/Taranis station

[hiran]

Ok, so we have a quite heterogenous state with the OXPs, and we have very limited capacity to have them upgraded. If we tried to do something it needs to be at the low hanging fruits then. How do we identify those?

Would it make sense to create a table with a row for each of the expansions, and in the rows we assign grades for the different aspects of the expansion.
These aspects could be
- importance/idea
- compatibility
- playability
- sound/graphics
- suitable for flavour ...

the grades could be raw, so-so, good, production ready

If we find expansions that are good enough we could stuff them into a flavour straight away. Those that need little work (the low hanging fruits) should then be targeted as well, and so on...