Sun skimmer - Questions

[Rustem]

Regularly flying toward the sun to improve the package distant stars, I noted that there is no sun skimmer, although based oolite have scripts and AI for sun skimmering.

Sun skimmer and others traders may be near sun, it may be mostly smugglers and pirates, sometimes traders, traveling over long distances and jumping.
To add, modify package TotalPatrol, develop an extension sun skimmer. It is add skimmer ship to route2 (wp - sun). Work in process. I would like to know the opinion, may have other reasons for the lack of sun skimmers.

I have several questions: why so little sun skimmers?
What feature should be in the package?

[ocz]

Actually I started an Addon containing a sun orbital station, a sunskimming activity/job for the player and a sunskimming transporter+AI. I got pretty far (I've made a fine stationmodel(80% finished, only polish left), the AI is also finished and the Equipment+new Commodity+Prizes looked also good so far), but the station is to hard to find and I couldn't find a good way to make it easily to spot around the sun.

I played with the idea of using the technic of "cargo spotter" + an OpenGL shader, but than I was too busy to look further into it. I guess I'll just upload my work in progress so far tomorrow (hopefully).

[Norby]

the station is to hard to find

If you set beacon or beacon_label in shipdata.plist then easy to find using advanced compass. Maybe more interesting if not always set nor exist in all systems but set beaconCode when arrive very near to the sun.
In this example you must go to the Sun and scoop fuel to find out whether there is a sun-station in this system or not:

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this.shipScoopedFuel = function() {
  var sunstation = this.$sunStation; //where you saved your station when created
  if( system.sun && sunstation && sunstation.isValid && !sunstation.beaconCode 
    && player.ship.position.distanceTo(system.sun.position) < system.sun.radius * Math.sqrt(2) ) {
    //the player is within the masslock radius of Sun
    sunstation.beaconCode = "S";
    sunstation.beaconLabel = "Sun Station";
    player.consoleMessage("Visit Sun Station! We added our beacon to your compass.", 10);
  }
}

[ocz]

If you set beacon or beacon_label in shipdata.plist then easy to find using advanced compass.

I also created a nice little (but very crudly done) symbol for the station, but this isn't good enough for me. The problem is, that witchfuel is dead cheap.

The Solar station is a refinery. I've created two new commodities ("Coronal Plasma" and "Quirium Plasma" (I'm not sure how I called it, it's more than two months ago)) to simulate that the player is hauling in hugher amounts of plasma, that aren't preprocessed ("Coronal Plasma") and preprocessed Quirium enriched Plasma ("Quirium Plasma"), that can be distributed to other stations by the player. As witchfuel is so cheap both commodities arn't worth much (around S:4Cr for the CP and B:10Cr/S:14Cr for the QP). It's isn't a job, which gets you rich. It's around on par with asteroid mining.

By the point you own an advanced compass, you don't need of visit that station anymore, exept to sell some food or (a very limited amount of) drugs for some in-system-trading.

I thought about creating a cheap lite version of the advanced compass (just pointing to the station), but the source doesn't permit it.

[ocz]

Here's what I've got so far:
Disclaimer: This is a ALPHAVERSION that hasn't been thoroughly tested. Don't use it on old savegames and try to save/overwrite them with this OXP. (Nothing too bad should happen, but it's just to be on the save side.) Just start a new game with it to take a look at its features.
SolarHarvest_alpha_0.1.oxz
Much redundant code, nearly no commentary and I just can't get the hullplating of the station to look like I want it to. (It should look something like the hull of Bab5, not like it's covered in sprinkles.)

EDIT: In Lave it's at -478799, -219724, 686399, so to get quickly there:
player.ship.position = Vector3D(-468799, -219724, 686399)

[Rustem]

Here's what I've got so far:
SolarHarvest_alpha_0.1.oxz

player.ship.position = Vector3D(-468799, -219724, 686399)

Attept seen package, d'nt run new cmdr and prev. save files with SolarHarvest_alpha, game exit.

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    ../AddOns/SmartHUD_1.0_tw.oxz
    ../AddOns/SolarHarvest_alpha_0.1.oxz
    ../AddOns/Spicy_hermits_1.0_tw.oxz
    ../AddOns/Sun_skimmers_0.1.oxz
    ../AddOns/System_Features_DistantStars_0.2.oxz
    ../AddOns/System_Features_Sunspots_1.5_log.oxz
    ../AddOns/UK_Eliter.Ferdelance_3G_6.24.oxz
    ../AddOns/Weapons.oxp
    ../AddOns/Weapons.oxp/Gatling_Laser_1.0.oxz
    ../AddOns/Weapons.oxp/LaserCannons_1.9.oxz
    ../AddOns/XenonHUD_tw.oxz
    ../AddOns/YOUR_AD_HERE_4.2.2.oxz
00:44:57.819 [shipData.load.begin]: Loading ship data.
00:44:59.204 [startup.complete]: ========== Loading complete in 2.61 seconds. ==========
00:45:03.836 [shipData.load.begin]: Loading ship data.

[ocz]

Ah bugger! So, the oxz creates an error? I'm sorry if it does. It ran well on my computer, but I renamed it from SolarHarvest.oxz to SolarHarvest_alpha_0.1.oxz just before uploading and I never attempted to save a game with it. Also I just always started new ones. I'll put a warning infront of the download link. Also I'll look into it tomorrow. Could you also state what happend just a bit more detailed?

Also: I your savegame alright?

[Rustem]

All right! After renaming has solved error. Thanks!

[Astrobe]

Just tried it. I like the overall idea. Remarks/suggestions:

- I was expecting the device to trigger at the same time as fuel scooping, but the corona compressor started way sooner.

- The Corona Plasma concept is a bit inconsistent with the fact that a ship can already scoop fuel from the corona and use it directly (OTOH according to the wiki, Quirium is an artificial chemical compound...). So why not just sell fuel? It is quite important in the Ooniverse; you even see tankers wandering around, and yet it is not in the market place.

- I have yet to find a good reason to go sun skimming. Currently to buy a heat shielding isn't worth the savings one makes by not paying fuel. The main tank, the fuel scoops and the compressor have to be connected in a way or an other, so I'm think that if one can reverse-feed the fuel that's in the device but not yet sealed in a canister to the main tank, it could act like an extra fuel tank of say, 1 LY. Then heat shielding + your compressor would then become worth it in my opinion. Maybe make it cost a few TC of cargo space for balance and realism. (if you like it but have better things to do, I can try to implement it. I'm a newbie scripter, though)

- The selling price of the fuel should be 3cr rather than 4cr, because the fuel sold by Galcop stations cost 24cr/7LY, so a little more than 3cr/LY. The lower income is I believe still worth it if you add the above feature, the free fuel from scooping, and the chance of taking advantage of price differences between the main and solar stations (who doesn't have a Markets MFD these days?).

[Norby]

taking advantage of price differences between the main and solar stations

If you add inquirer_station into the roles of station then [wiki]Market Inquirer[/wiki] will compare the prices.

[ocz]

@Astrobe: Thank you so much for your feedback. I hunger for every ounce of any form of feedback.

I had my reasons, why I made the OXP the way I did.

Here we go:

First off: I wanted to create an in-system activity for beginning commanders, with empty pockets. I might have already mentioned it (Oh boy, I did!), but I'm a hugh fan of [wiki]Start Choices[/wiki]. I think a new commander shouldn't begin the game in a Cobra MKIII. He/she should begin in a smaller vessel, maybe even one without a Witchdrive (Krait/Worm) and work his/her way up. This OXP is targeted at this audience. Ideally even with a Cobra MKIII/Normal start it should make a good activity for the first 10-40min of a new game. Just something little to flesh the game and the oolite-universe a bit out.
Also: Mining asteroids is a lot of work and you'll just get around 10cr per ton of minerals, while flying to the sun is much easier and repeatable. It wouldn't be fair nor logical to make more money by sun skimming than by mining. Ergo -> sun skimming must yield very low profits.

The Corona Plasma concept is a bit inconsistent with the fact that a ship can already scoop fuel from the corona and use it directly (OTOH according to the wiki, Quirium is an artificial chemical compound...). So why not just sell fuel? It is quite important in the Ooniverse; you even see tankers wandering around, and yet it is not in the market place.

I try to make my reasoning on this as short as possible (, but it probably won't be):

Some time ago I thought about reasons, why ships only store 7LY witchfuel at most. Disembodied argued, that to create a wormhole, Quirium(witchfuel) is spun very fast and the distance the one can travel is linear dependent of the spinning speed. As the spinning speed approaches the speed of light, it's around 7 LY and that's it. But than again there are other uses of witchfuel. For the injectors for example. Why don't they carry around more? More conclusive jumps. Lower danger to get stuck in interstellar space. Speeding around with the injectors all the way. (Well, it would break the gamebalance. That's the reason. But I had to come up with an in-game reason.)
My guess was, that pure witchfuel in a too high density (the amount of Quirium in a volume of spacetime) would destabilize itself. The more you carry around, the more dangerous it gets. 7 LY is a good trade between safety and usability. Just carry so much around, what you really need.

But how do the stations store it then? How do you ship larger amounts? I came up with the idea of "unclean" plasma, that doesn't "ignite" that fast. The not-quirium-plasma compounds would suppress the reaction. Natural Coronal Plasma, directly taken from the corona (or with a higher quirium desity to a certain extent) could fulfil that role.
Then I thought, that this density could be further increased, but refining an artificial plasma mixture. The Quirium Plasma was born and a reason to commute between the main station and the solar station. Also the solar station wasn't just a hugh fuel-tank anymore, but it became a refinery. In this OXP Quirium Plasma is the form, how all stations store there reserves.

I have yet to find a good reason to go sun skimming. Currently to buy a heat shielding isn't worth the savings one makes by not paying fuel.

I don't think its worth it in vanilla either. (Both, the shielding and the log trip to the sun.) That's why I thought, let's just do something with this in the beginning of the game, where every credit is worth a lot more.

The selling price of the fuel should be 3cr rather than 4cr, because the fuel sold by Galcop stations cost 24cr/7LY, so a little more than 3cr/LY.

I see Witchfuel as a very compact fuel. I think 7LY worth of pure witchfuels isn't more than a few litres/gallons of it. Quirium Plasma is transported in tons per unit. So, 1ton doesn't equal 1LY. 1 ton might contain 20-100LY worth of purified/filtered Quirium. The stations have to store it, what does cost them. Also they distribute it. They have to make a living, but....buying 1t QP at 14cr and selling its content (around 21LY = 3* 7LY -> 81cr) for 81cr, that's quite a killing.....Okaaaay!!??...That's not right.
I didn't want to make in-system fueltransportation a too profitable business, to encourage interstellar trading of other goods (what elite is about for a large portion), but those numbers are way too off. Maybe I rebalance it form 2t CP -> 1t QP / QP b:10cr; s:14cr to 10t CP -> 1t QP / QP b:50cr; s:54cr. RESULTS OF FEEDBACK!
But this could make fueltraders attractive for pirates. Bad for beginning commanders. Got to rethink that a bit more.

I was expecting the device to trigger at the same time as fuel scooping, but the corona compressor started way sooner.

It was planned this way. Normally the scoops start collecting at around a height of 1.15*sunradius from its core. (0.15*radius above its surface), but when I tried to do this without fuelinjectors and/or heatplating the results weren't pretty. It was just impossible for a starter ship. Even more when using another ship (a slower one) then the Cobra MKIII. And don't let me get started about the NPC harvesters I created. Never to be seen ever again.
The collecting process had to start way earlier to give everyone a chance to survive. Around 1.5*radius was a good value. My explanation is, that higher up, the Quirium concentration is low, but still harvestable. The atmosphere is just not dense enough for the ordinary fuelscoops. The Solar harvesting equipment is able to scoop it. Also at an altitude of 1.5*radius harvesting is much slower, that at 1.15*radius. I made sure of that. (Bigger&faster ships -> faster harvesting/more harvesting per time)

Wow, look at that answer post. I hope you can see my reasons for those approaches to balance everything out. If you can come up with alternatives, how to make it simpler and still keep it in balance with the other elements of the game (Asteroid mining, keeping the interstellar trading more profitable), please by all means, tell me or restate them, if you thing I misunderstood your previous reasons somewhere or you feel, that I missed some points.

EDIT: How did you like the soundeffects?

[Astrobe]

EDIT: How did you like the soundeffects?

Nice! At first I thought something was deploying and then I realized it was the device. Very compressor-ish, perfect.

I see you have a very specific goal in mind and your choices make sense in this context. It seems the OXP still can be of some interest past the beginning phase. In my set up, when I entering a system I have three possible destinations: the main station, the station for the extra planet (I only allow one), and the sun station (*). I compare prices with the Markets MFD, and the opportunities decide where I go. Now if it's interesting to go buy/sell stuff at the sun station, I can make a few extra credits by sun skimming. Just like I mine sometimes asteroids "en passant".

If you're looking for other explanations of the 7LY maybe the notion of "critical mass" could be of some use: The risks for fuel to go boom spontaneously increase exponentially with the volume. Stations actually have to store them in separate canisters, which is space consuming, but space is money in space.
As for the consistency of fuel scooping versus the artificial nature of Witchfuel, one possible solution is that the distillation process is not chemical, but physical. It could for instance involve (quantic) manipulations in the fifth dimension (hyperspace is a "higher-dimensional space" according to my sources, so nothing new here ).

(*) From Wildships OXP. It has very nice stations but it "overpopulates" systems with them IMO.

[Astrobe]

I've been playing with it for some time now.

It would be nice to be able to sell corona plasma anywhere, even if it's for 0.1Cr. Because when one goes to the star to refuel, the pump pumps plasma and if you forget about it, you find yourself at the station with your bay cluttered with something you can't get rid of. Ejecting 20 TC of plasma is annoying too, because the game auto-switches to the next slot when the current slot becomes empty.

Docking with sun stations when the star is a red giant is a bit difficult, because you hardly see the docking slit. I consider it a feature, though.

[phkb]

Had a quick go with this OXP, and hit the following snags. From my log file:

16:20:04.896 [shipData.load.error]: ***** ERROR: the shipdata.plist entry "solar_station_logo" specifies no roles.
16:20:04.896 [oxp-standards.error]: Error in shipdata.plist
16:20:04.899 [shipData.load.error]: ***** ERROR: the shipdata.plist entry "sphere" specifies no roles.
16:20:04.899 [oxp-standards.error]: Error in shipdata.plist

16:22:33.296 [script.javaScript.exception.notFunction]: ***** JavaScript exception (Coronal Harvester Script 0.1.0): TypeError: system.planets.position.distance is not a function
16:22:33.296 [script.javaScript.exception.notFunction]: ../AddOns/Testing.oxp/SolarHarvest_alpha_0.1.oxp/Scripts/CoronalHarvesterScripts.js, line 312.

Plus a couple of spelling mistakes:
In trade-goods.plist, "save" should be "safe" (2 instances).

Looking good, though!

[Stormrider]

After reading this post I had a look at this. I had to use a descriptions.plist to get the name to properly display in the contracts GUI and messages I created.
In my trade-goods.plist:

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"name" = "[commodity-name witchfire_whiskey]";

then in my descriptions.plist:

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{
	// Commodity names
	"commodity-name witchfire_whiskey" = "Witchfire";
}