Proposed wiki page - OXPs for new players.

[Smivs]

I thought I'd given up on this

One thing I have to ask - what specifically is the point of this page?

Put simply to offer newcomers a range of OXPs that can be safely used without fundamentals of the game being changed. The purpose of this is to let them use a wide range of OXPs (mostly for visual and ambience enhancement) while still essentially playing the 'core' game. Learning the 'core' game early on will help them to subsequently choose 'game-changing' OXPs from a more informed position.

But what kind of criteria? The only concrete thing I've read was 'OXP in G1'.
All other things are not clearly defined, e.g 'impact on game balance' and people will use it with different definitions and in different contexts.

Yes, G1 because that's where players start, so OXPs specific to other galaxies are not relevent.
The actual criteria are objective by their nature. The idea is to collectively agree upon OXPs which have no serious affects on gameplay and balance. That is why I thought making this a community project was the best way forward, as together we could agree on what does and what does not constitute a serious impact on gameplay. For example the slower station rotation caused by Delightful Docking and Griffs station bundle generally seems to be acceptable. Adding an OXP which for example skews markets is not.

I must also repeat (as this message obviously hasn't got through to everybody) that this is NOT a popularity contest, and is NOT a list of recommendations or suggestions. It is a list of OXPs that the community consider to be free of significant game-changing features.
All OXPs which are 'safe' can be included in the list. The sole reason for excluding an OXP is that it is deemed 'game-changing' in some way.

[JazHaz]

All OXPs which are 'safe' can be included in the list. The sole reason for excluding an OXP is that it is deemed 'game-changing' in some way.

So why are the star jellies included? As far as I know, quirium explosions are a 'game-changing' feature?

[Smivs]

So why are the star jellies included?

They are not included. Right now nothing is included as the list has been pulled due to the project being abandoned. It has been abandoned due to this thread being constantly derailed by (deliberate?) obfuscation and confusion. Frankly I find this un-necessary and distasteful and I would ask that anyone contributing to this thread would do so in a productive and positive way.
If others want to try to salvage something from this they are welcome to do so, and if I can contribute in a positive way I will. I was hoping that this would be a community project whereby members would constructively collaborate in producing a useful resource for new players. However all the time individuals are trying to impose their personal likes and dislikes on this matter, or try to derail it because it does not fit in with their personal beliefs it will not be successful.

[Cpt]

I would like this project resurrected.

Perhaps appropriate warnings issued by those with concerns can go next to each suggested OXP to me this is the equivalent of a sign saying "Abandon hope all ye who enter here" or "proceed at your own risk" but for N00bs it would be useful to have the concerns or negatives highlighted so they can make an informed choice which appears to be what Smivs was wanting to do and for that I applaud his efforts!

Perhaps text could be put in the discussion page of this wiki page and a form of words agreed for the page or the compromise outcome of as near as we can get to the least worst explanations people can live with...

[Svengali]

The actual criteria are objective by their nature.

Sorry, but no. Most of the used terms here are not clearly defined. Or can you actually say what 'no serious affects on gameplay and balance' really means?

A clear definition is something like the 'OXP in G1' or 'OXP does not require score > 0'. Finding definitions for fuzzy terms is a challenge, but it is a necessary step to talk about the same things.

[Smivs]

Or can you actually say what 'no serious affects on gameplay and balance' really means?

No, of course I can't. Nobody can, which is why I went for the next best thing - a consensus of opinion derived from a focussed discussion by a wide range of informed individuals. (At least that is what I was hoping for!)

[Disembodied]

I think it might be better to produce several "personal selection" pages, with a brief rationale along the lines of the ones given by Thargoid:

• To give new players a softer (easier) start in the game, to lower the learning curve and keep their interest longer to "get hooked" on Oolite and not scare them off by being too difficult (too many docking splats for example)?
• To showcase what the game can do, in terms of visual appearance and general "wow" factor.
• To offer a variety of things to do around G1 to broaden their options and keep things interesting.

Finding consensus here is like herding ADHD cats, blindfold, in a bouncy castle full of catnip mice on strings ... maybe having a few "Smivs/Thargoid/Disembodied/etc. recommends because ..." pages would be better. We could even link to them in our sigs if we wanted to, and be individually responsible for updating.

[Smivs]

My problem with that is that I don't like personal recommendation lists which is why I've never done one. In the context of this discussion they totally fail to deliver what I think is needed, namely an impartial table of neutral OXPs that a newbie can draw from.
There are several reasons for this.
Firstly, they inevitably reflect the likings of the author first and foremost. A newcomer might be interested in what others like, but there is no guarantee that they will like the same things. They may not all be appropriate, and they will more likely reflect the OXPs the (experienced) user has installed.
Personal lists are likely to be limited in scope and my hope is that a wide choice can be offered.
With multiple lists a newcomer will also be confronted with a wealth of conflicting information, and having to collate several lists is a chore nobody needs.
And of course a mish-mash of personal lists will not be able to touch on practical aspects such as which OXPs work together and which should be used alone. A newbie list alone wouldn't either, but it could be put into a context with other useful advice and information as a co-ordinated whole rather than disconnected bits.

Although my original draft of this list had a format similar to the personal lists, that was largely because I started by grouping the OXPs. Reading back, I never made it clear (which I probably should have done) that the end product would be more like the main OXP table in layout. In fact earlier in this thread somebody refered to this as 'like a mini-OXP table', and that is exactly what I think we need.
It might even be that this idea (and maybe the parallel thread on so-called 'cheat' OXPs) could be applied to the main table.
One option is a column where a tick or something signifies that an OXP might be suitable for new players, that sort of thing. <sticks neck out> The Compatibility column is a bit of a mess these days and is almost certainly not up to date. Also it might be considered less necessary now than when it was introduced. Perhaps a simple 'Y' or 'N' in a Suitable for New Players column to eventually replace the compatibility column? Or even a new column, although that would add more clutter? to the table, and take up valuable space.
Another option might be to apply a different background colour to the 'safe' OXPs. However, this may not be technically feasible due to the styling of the table.

As far as deciding what OXPs actually go into the newbie list, why don't we just compile a list, then edit it. Most of the OXPs put forward will presumably be obvious candidates and will go unchallenged. Members could then identify any they are unhappy with, explaining why they think they would change the game in a way detrimental to new players, and we'll debate it from there. Yes each objection would have to be dealt with individually, and that is not a quick process, but it seems the only fair and democratic way, and the only way the whole community could involve themselves. And at the end of the day, this list needs the confidence of the wider community to work.

[Cody]

My problem with that is that I don't like personal recommendation lists which is why I've never done one.

<nods in agreement>

[JensAyton]

Efforts like this always seem to get shot down because defining a perfect set of beginner OXPs is impossible.

Perfect is the enemy of good, and our current giant list of OXPs is extremely unapproachable. I would very much like to see a community-curated list of starter OXPs, even if it doesn’t make everybody (or anybody) entirely happy. They don’t need to be sublimely complementary, universally admired or completely balance-neutral. They don’t need to be mutually consistent in style, scale or story. There just needs to be a list of (at most) dozens rather than hundreds of not-very-controversial OXPs, that don’t massively change the game’s difficulty.

We are, broadly speaking, grown-ups, and should be able to reach some level of compromise without getting heavily invested in our opinions on specific OXPs.

[Ranthe]

My two CR as a relative newbie:

The OXPs that I initially selected for adding were primarily around the ambience / immersion factor, as I had no real idea at that stage as to whether the vanilla gameplay was in fact "too hard" or "too soft" (beyond the traditional "Press Start to Game Over" exercise of manually docking at a main station until one could afford docking computers). Missions were something I felt I could pick up later once I'd come to grips with the basic game principles, and new ships were pretty much a "far off in the future" thought.

Based on my initial installs, here's my take - in no particular order - on what could be considered "new player OXPs".

* Traffic Control - yes it's slightly "game changing", but it does help you learn how to do manual docking which is a BIG thing early in the game.
* System Redux - eye candy
* Flight Log
* BGS - eye (and ear) candy
* Any Replacement Shipset (I started with Deepspace, then moved to Griffs and Smivs) - eye candy
* Any Sounds Replacement (Customsounds, Captain Berf, Halsis) - eyeear candy
* Explorer's Club
* Random Ship Names - possibly the most effective "ambience" OXP from an immersion perspective
* Deep Horizon Nav Buoy - eye candy

[Cpt]

Any Sounds Replacement (Customsounds, Captain Berf, Halsis) - eye candy

Surely you mean Ear candy?

[Malacandra]

Just to say that yes, Random Ship Names is one of the most awesomely effective immersion-boosters while having no discernible effect on game play. It reminds me of a D&D character name generator a friend of mine wrote years ago which had a Good/Neutral/Evil button, so you could get names like "Fairwind Angelsky", "Fred Jimson" or "Vilehate Murderaxe" respectively (much like RSN does). It's also amusing in that you can spot a ship, buzz around the system for a while, get into a fight or two, spot a ship and go "Oh, it's him again, still here".

[Norby]

There are too many OXPs to mention all interesting ones when somebody ask it, so usually the large-and-great ones get into the view only, but I like many smalls also. I know it is impossible to recommend a list with more than 100 OXPs due to the many installation can be boring (until there are no one click in-game feature to install these from a central server), so I give a try to made my Recommended OXPs available not only as a list but downloadable also in tematically grouped zip files which are based on the previous posts.

Basic OXPs should be good for the strict players also, as the Lookout and Mission OXPs but these zips a "bit" larger and I do not want upload 100MBs every time when a Basic OXP changes.

Helper OXPs can change the game mechanics but in "somewhat balanced" mode, and the player always can remove what he found too powerful after a try but get a chance to determine it personally.

Powerup OXPs gathered to make a harsh Ooniverse which can be interesting to the Elite pilots also.

Maybe these can help to the new players also, but criticism welcomed.

[Norby]

Many downloads received in the first week: more than 20 from Basic OXPs and about 10 from others, so I continued to fill up the tematical groups. The only problem was the heavy traffic: the first 3 day of this month used up the 70% of the monthly limit of my box, so I was forced to find another solution.

Meantime I extended my goal from a personal recommendation pack to an almost holistic system, the  OXP Collection and opened a dedicated topic to discuss it.