Oolite 2: ship balance, starting conditions and death knells

[Disembodied]

i don't get that at all. The price of ships should be immaterial up to the point the player is a good enough player to have amassed the money to afford one, and by that point i don't see anything needing a change. The economy is as it is - it fluctuates in a range and that's all the fun of finding a good paired systems to trade in, and that little gameplay joy when you hit a good price and that little gameplay droop when you fight your way to a station only to find you've made C2 a ton profit. NPC behaviour - why? traders do what they do, pirates do what they do. There's tricks and tips to trade as safe as possible until you have a better specced ship, i don't see why we need go messing w/ every AI in the game.

also, unless i totally missed the point somewhere, i thought this was all about starting OPTIONS? granted the default will/probably/should be Jameson in the Cobra w/ C100 etc, but i thought we were talking about a couple of different option for those who wanted a challenge, or pretend to be a salvager/trder/baddie pirate etc? Just like Hardwar, offering you a slightly different start if you wanted to be a trader/scavenger etc.

The point I'm obviously not making too well is that any game which allows for player progression and development should start the player at the bottom, so they can enjoy all the potential "Ooh, nice!" moments available – those moments where your progress through the game is given some tangible reward. Elite was probably the first game to allow player progression at all: you began in an unmodified Cobra III, and all the "Ooh, nice!" moments (not counting the escalation in kill ranking) were getting new bits of kit: your new beam laser, your ECM, your fuel scoop, your Extra Energy Unit, your military laser, etc.

Oolite, however, lets players change ships. As Gimi says, the Cobra III is a really, really good ship. By starting players in a Cobra III, arguably the best all-round ship in the core game, we are denying players the chance to experience lots of other, major "Ooh, nice!" moments, as they progress from tiny little nothing ship, to slightly bigger, better ship, to actually half-way decent ship, to at long last enjoying a special "my very own Cobra III!" moment. From a pure enjoyment point of view, in a game which allows players to change ships, it's a mistake to start them off in a ship which they will quite possibly never want to change. Players should start in the smallest, least powerful ship, so they can experience all these moments of achievement as they improve.

This – what I've been banging on about anyway, to the extent that Ahruman felt it necessary to split the thread – is not about setting difficulty levels. Players should start on the bottom rung, somewhere relatively safe, where they can paddle about in a little ship, learn the basics, make a little money, and just when they're getting the hang of things they'll be able to afford their first significant step up the ladder. Frontier had this part right: because you could change ships, you started off with hardly any money, piloting an unmodified Eagle. There wasn't the option to start off with hardly any money, piloting an unmodified Imperial Courier.

However, Elite/Oolite is constructed around the assumption that the player is flying a Cobra III, and will always be flying a Cobra III. We've got canonical material giving us prices for other ships, but these were never intended to be actual working parts of the game – because no-one would ever buy a Moray, or a Python, or a Boa, or even a Cobra III. This was just window-dressing. Now, though, in Oolite, it actually matters, because we can buy new ships.

So if we wanted to make a version of the game where new players start off in the bottom-rung ship, i.e. an Adder – as they should, for the above-mentioned game-design reasons, so they don't miss out on the excitement of progressing to a Moray, then to a Cobra I, and so on – these prices start to matter a lot. Combined with the low stats of the Adder, the tiny cargo hold, the tiny earning potential of the ship, the difficulty of flying any sort of ship that's slower than a Cobra III (you are constantly stuck in traffic, for a start), the current ship and equipment prices – created for a game where the player would only ever be flying a Cobra III – make starting in an Adder a masochistic nightmare. The next rung up is so far away as to be all but unreachable, in practical terms, for new, beginning, I've-never-played-Elite-before players. Even if you reach it, you're still barely scraping by, and still in a painfully slow ship; in Elite/Oolite, the Cobra III is to all intents and purposes the minimum spec. ship you can fly and still enjoy the game – certainly as a newcomer.

The design of Elite is a function of its 32K origins. You're dropped right into things and you should get used to dying, real fast, because you're going to be doing it a lot. This isn't bad – it's just not as good as it could be now we're not constrained by 32K. It's probably offputting to a lot of new players, who are used to a gentler, and much longer, learning curve. Like Gimi says, it starts off being incredibly hard, and then quite quickly you're at the top of the tree. New equipment in Oolite, and OXP ships, help, but even so there aren't nearly as many "Ooh, nice!" moments as there could be.

A game where an Adder is a viable ship for newcomers, where they can potter around sort-of safely for a bit, before upgrading to ("Ooh, nice!") a Moray, say, and flying off into some of the slightly wilder parts to practice some more, is a game which is not Oolite. It would need:

• an expanded trading model, to allow small ships to make money at a decent rate (probably incorporating some sort of non-cargo-based courier runs)
• an altered system of ship running costs, to make these costs proportional to the earning potentials of the ships
• altered NPC behaviour, to make small ships more survivable (albeit at the cost of your cargo) and slower ships less frustrating to fly
• altered ship prices, to create a coherent and achievable progression ladder
• altered geography, to create a "paddling pool" of safe systems for Jamesons to practice in

and probably more besides. Oolite is a game which assumes you're flying at least a Cobra III. To change this assumption is non-trivial, to say the least.

Which is not to say that some starting options couldn't be built into the game – but the only ones opting for them would be long-time players looking for a new challenge. And they can probably sort that out for themselves anyway.

[Disembodied]

i think we're all missing the most important Oolite 2.0 feature request - blue space background option please

That's not funny. Shame on you!

[Killer Wolf]

excellent points, Disembodied.

For my part, i'd like to see something else that might take the edge off a ship as "bad" as an Adder : the implementation of the Bulletin Boards. There, we'd see :
- wanted ads, people willing to pay over-market prices for goods.
- for sale : people selling cargo and equipment at a sub-market price.
- courier jobs : this is where an Adder wouldn't matter ~ it'd be ferrying letter/packages, things that would fit in the cabin or in the hold but would be much smaller than a Cannister. Some of these would be pretty good paying so it'd work out as good as a cargo trading trip in a "Jameson" scenario.
- Jobs : these could be anything, from getting you to escort a ship into an Anarchy, to say Galcop offering a few dozen credits for clearing asteroids that are building up and encroaching on the space lane, to assassination jobs etc.

w/ a bit clever scripting or such like, this could massively open up the game. The asteroid this could get you out and learning to launch, dock, fly and shoot all w/out having to hyperspace etc etc. The package thing could see you suddenly jumped by a horde of pirates as you realise you've just stumbled into the middle of a turf war by carrying packages for one side.
i think this would add huge amounts of atmosphere to the gaem, if embellished w/ some good text/missionscreen graphics.

[Switeck]

Moray ships (medical and normal) seem to be fast (0.30 LM) but not quite as tough as the Cobra 3, so maybe they'd make decent starter ships as well?

If the Cobra 3 remains as a possible start, call it "Easiest".

NPC behaviour - why? traders do what they do, pirates do what they do. There's tricks and tips to trade as safe as possible until you have a better specced ship, i don't see why we need go messing w/ every AI in the game.

As for NPC behavior, to keep the universe interesting. The AI must be reasonable rather than stupid -- or the game will get boring really quick once you get good at it and have an iron ass of a ship. Anarchy systems should offer at least a low risk for anyone, if they're inclined to actually hunt down and kill all the pirate groups in the system...as opposed to taking the usually safe indirect route to the main station.

Others have asked for better NPC behavior, and that's reason enough *IF* someone is willing to devote the time to improving the AI -- rather than just increasing the stupid NPC's stats to ridiculous levels like many other games do. It is appropriate for the NPC ships to potentially have the same capabilities as the player's ship.

Having said that, very aggressive + effective NPC ships should only be added rarely for variety.

[Ganelon]

Despite some people's feelings that the Anaconda's cargo capacity is ridiculously high and a typo, it's now a legacy of it. And the extra cargo capacity it has is of VERY limited value for regular buying/selling at the main stations. You will almost always run out of stuff to buy (at least stuff WORTH buying) before hitting 250 TC. But leaving it with a 750 TC max gives it a certain niche for those that want to do mad numbers of cargo contracts.

I've never tried an Anaconda, but such a ship could be quite valuable as a trader ship, just not a *small* trader. It'd be a different style of play is all. Assuming the player has the ship and a bit of capitol to work with, at every stop you buy everything that is at a certain percentage below average price and you sell everything that is a certain percentage over average price. The further you decide to place those percentages from average, the greater the profit margin (obviously). Once you find the best range for that (where the hold gets filled and the CR rack up), then pretty much every stop is a good paying one, and it can be a way to a very large CR balance in your account.

But for most people it would get kind of tedious, unless they were trying to raise money for something really big, like one of the very expensive "uber" ships or something. Or maybe if their personal "score" goal in the game was to be a billionaire rather than racking up enough kills to be "Elite". Maybe some people would want to accumulate a vast fortune so "price is no object" before working on their kill counts. Lots of people, lots of ways to play the game, and that's good!

The Annie isn't a fast ship, but it's not so bad, with seven missile slots, seven energy banks and a medium recharge rate. A player would want to get good with those side and rear lasers, but it's certainly no sitting duck. Not much of an iron arse either, but it would make a pretty decent ship if the player wanted to do larger scale trading. No dog-fighter, but it mounts enough weaponry to keep off the average pirate attack so long as one made good use of the side and rear guns rather than trying to turn into the target so much and was making enough CR to not mind paying for hardheads fairly regularly.

My point is that the gameplay strategy with it, if a player chose it, would be very different than how one would play the game with something like a Cobra MK III (to use the most common example). But there would be effective strategies and some good opportunities and.. a balance.

I don't think it's good to try and balance the game too precisely, or we risk the danger of ending up with Oolite being yet another game where the player is led by the nose and there's really only one way to play it. The more options and possibilities that are left open to the player, the better. If a player doesn't read the manual or at least consider the advice of a certain wise blue frog on Lave, then they've already made the game harder for themselves.

I agree that there should be more sorts of jobs and opportunities made available even from the start, to offset the small cargo holds and limited weaponry. Maybe intentionally keep the ones near the starting point a bit dull, so that as the player gains confidence and upgrades their ship they go further out and find more adventure. That way the player can find their own balance between schlepping away banking CR for upgrades and/or working capitol and going blazing off half-cocked into the great unknown (where they just may get their rump roasted and handed to them on a stick).

To try and "manage" how a player has to do things at the beginning, is it really good? Is it what was good about this game for us when we started?

[Zireael]

excellent points, Disembodied.

For my part, i'd like to see something else that might take the edge off a ship as "bad" as an Adder : the implementation of the Bulletin Boards. There, we'd see :
- wanted ads, people willing to pay over-market prices for goods.
- for sale : people selling cargo and equipment at a sub-market price.
- courier jobs : this is where an Adder wouldn't matter ~ it'd be ferrying letter/packages, things that would fit in the cabin or in the hold but would be much smaller than a Cannister. Some of these would be pretty good paying so it'd work out as good as a cargo trading trip in a "Jameson" scenario.
- Jobs : these could be anything, from getting you to escort a ship into an Anarchy, to say Galcop offering a few dozen credits for clearing asteroids that are building up and encroaching on the space lane, to assassination jobs etc.

w/ a bit clever scripting or such like, this could massively open up the game. The asteroid this could get you out and learning to launch, dock, fly and shoot all w/out having to hyperspace etc etc. The package thing could see you suddenly jumped by a horde of pirates as you realise you've just stumbled into the middle of a turf war by carrying packages for one side.
i think this would add huge amounts of atmosphere to the gaem, if embellished w/ some good text/missionscreen graphics.

Seconded, I think these ideas are great!
And for the record, I think it's time for Oolite 2 to get away from Cobra III as the centerpoint of the Ooniverse.

[Killer Wolf]

as another aspect of ship trading, i think it might be cool to sometimes force a trade on the player. it seems "unrealistic" to get the living sht kicked out of your ship on a regular basis, by combat or stuffing your docking procedure, and simply replace or repair stuff w/ a simple click on the F3 screen. i'd like a ship's integrity to be stored, say a simple 0~100 value that increases depending how much damage you take over a certain limit. it might start affecting ship attributes like speed or roll/pitch rates. there would come a time when you'd have to sell up and get a new one - too much damage and you get a shtty trade-in price of course.

[Zireael]

as another aspect of ship trading, i think it might be cool to sometimes force a trade on the player. it seems "unrealistic" to get the living sht kicked out of your ship on a regular basis, by combat or stuffing your docking procedure, and simply replace or repair stuff w/ a simple click on the F3 screen. i'd like a ship's integrity to be stored, say a simple 0~100 value that increases depending how much damage you take over a certain limit. it might start affecting ship attributes like speed or roll/pitch rates. there would come a time when you'd have to sell up and get a new one - too much damage and you get a shtty trade-in price of course.

Another great idea!

[dilky]

Hi, I've been playing EliteAGB on the DS which starts you in an Adder, so I thought I'd stick my oar in

In EliteAGB, you start off with an Adder with 8 cargo tonnes, but you have enough cash to get a beam laser as well as some cargo. There are no injectors and travelling outside of the witch point to station space lane doesn't reduce encounters, so things are really tough. Also, each piece of equipment takes up one cargo space, so you are forced into making choices. It's very low resolution, there are no nav bouys and you need frameskip to slow the game to a decent speed making docking a lot harder. Add all this up and you have one tough game!

Compared to this, I think Oolite is probably made a bit too easy by starting in the Cobra.

Ease players in gently, (optional) Lave Academy to start, maybe with some sort of prize at the end, followed by a scripted (optional) contract for a few freighter escort convoy missions so the little adder won't be all alone. They could ECM for you, you could scoop any pirate booty, the trader could give you advice. Would need to have some sort of group Jump Drive option though to stop it being a bit slow.

There is a huge gulf between the prices of the ships. Maybe it would help if the part exchange values were more generous or the ships were squashed in price a bit more. It would be a lot of runs to get the 100k for a Cobra Mk1. Maybe nerf the Moray a bit to make an easier halfway house?

[Zireael]

What's Elite AGB?

[Smivs]

Hi dilky, and welcome to the friendliest Board this side of Riedquat.
Good first post, and some interesting observations there. The Cobra 3 is a hangover from the 'original' Elite as you might be aware, and this fact is much debated as you might have noticed.
In a sense this is one of the most significant elements that might change with Oo2...a big departure from the games' 'roots' but a way to make it more coherant within itself.

[Switeck]

In the interest of ship balance, how about:
1.Reducing the Boa 1's cost to 300k (from 450k)? It's supposed to be the Python's replacement.
2.Giving the Fer de Lance almost every optional piece of equipment pre-installed to explain its ludicrously high cost?

[Commander McLane]

2.Giving the Fer de Lance almost every optional piece of equipment pre-installed to explain its ludicrously high cost?

However, the ludicrously high cost is not because of equipment, but because of the brand name, and the exquisite walnut dash and luxurious bathroom facilities.

[Cody]

and luxurious bathroom facilities.

Oh yes, a quality wet-room is vital on those long, sun-skimming, cross-chart runs.

[Smivs]

and the exquisite walnut dash and luxurious bathroom facilities.

The FerDeLance's zero-G Bidet is second to none!