Will Oolite survive with the release of Elite Dangerous?

[Fatleaf]

it is too predictable, too safe, too synthetic

Need to have a good variety of OXP's. Well chosen. Also do different things all the time.

the volume, mass, hull size don't matter at all

Well the game isn't a simulator so why would you expect it to really matter. If you added Newtonian Physics you would really dislike the game.

one of the strongest ships is adder and one of the weakest is anaconda. what to do with anaconda's cargo bay ? It is too big for such small galaxy.

Adder? Strongest? REALLY? With one energy bar no military shields and a really slow speed the only thing really going for it is its manoeuvrability. I agree the Anaconda is a laser magnet but if you have 6 escorts (which it should really have all the time) then you will be fine. The cargo thing is an old mistake made back when Elite was first written and has been lovingly preserved here and (I included) love that it has and would never want it to be 'corrected'.

fuel tank size. why all ships have 7ly of fuel ? Why huge anaconda can't have bigger tank ?

It's all down to the time it takes to do a jump. the further distance you jump the longer it takes to travel. 3 2Ly jumps take considerably shorter time than 1 6Ly jump. It goes back to the game recreating the atmosphere of Elite. Just how far do you want to change things? Where do we draw the line and once you really start to change the fundamental things at what point would you ruin the very thing you are trying to improve?

weird balance - look's like nobody uses all four lasers and instead people use different oxp-uber-mega-weapons

I for one uses all four lasers and have become quite tasty with it too I know quite a few here who only use 2 lasers as a matter of honour because back in 1.7x and earlier NPC's could only use 2 lasers. So for balance and game immersion they do the same. With the 'oxp-uber-mega-weapons' you mention, if you think they ruin your game, then avoid them. Not difficult

hundreds of imbalanced oxp's

That's the great thing about OXP's, if you don't like them for whatever reason then you don't have to install them. Your game, your choice! What anyone else does has absolutely zero impact what happens in your game. That is one of the great thing about this game, it is so modable. One of the reasons it has thrived (not just survived) for these years.

weak asteroid, planet rings and multi-planet implementation

You are welcome to help to make thing better........
I really appreciate the work the boffins have put into this game - for free - So long may they continue to help us to enjoy the spirit of Elite. Which is one of the reasons I created an OXP. I wanted to give something back to the community that have given me a lot with no ask for a reward.

there is actually 4 commodity, because the rest of them absolutely useless

Not if you know how to play the market right.

fine system kills any fun from smuggling, piracy and etc. To cleanup the rank you need to make just couple of jumps.

If you don't like the way the core game handles that there is an OXP or two that changes that!

Mass lock effect is too old fashioned, you can't countermeasure it.

Gravity is quite old fashioned yet I don't here a lot of complaints about it. Personally I like the way mass lock works. You can counter it with injectors.

Pixel aiming plus powerful uber-weapons :facepalm:

Uber weapons, as discussed earlier are your choice. If you can write something different that works better than Pixel aiming, you're more than welcome to give it a try.

To me the biggest mistake that was made, was laser usage. Newcomers are difficult to learn laser, especially left and right, so the lot's of imbalanced oxp-weapons is the obvious, natural consequenc. So, the oxp's become like losing chess.

The natural choice to me when starting this game for the first time is to exercise patience and learn the core game (which is quite balanced) before adding a load of OXP's (except for eye candy). 1.80 is a bit harder at the moment but that will soonTM be addressed.

Instead I started writing new Elite-like game

Why don't you help to make this game better instead?


TL;DR OXP's are your choice. Some things are not obvious and need a bit of learning. We all love the Devs for making this amazing game (along with its community) possible

[ralph_hh]

The natural choice to me when starting this game for the first time is to exercise patience and learn the core game (which is quite balanced) before adding a load of OXP's (except for eye candy). 1.80 is a bit harder at the moment but that will soonTM be addressed.

The longer I play 1.80 the more I wish, that everything stays as it is. I had no troubles beginning as a new Jameson and I definately have no troubles now. The difficulty level seems just perfect.

[Imaginos]

I find that 1.80 can be challenging at times. I have just recently made it to "average" and finally managed to buy some shield boosts but I still get my a*s shot to pieces on a fairly regular basis but where would the fun be if it was too easy?

[Venator Dha]

As I see it 1.80 changed the combat difficulty from 9 to 11. Then 1.81 changed it down to 10.5. It didn't simply turn down the ability of the NPCs but rather introduced several small changes to the weapons and NPC behaviour. This resulted in a game that could kill the inexperienced player quickly but that would not do it without giving them a chance. So instead of press space commander they might limp home with battle damage and lost cargo.

http://terrastorage.no-ip.info/oolite/status_mac.html give it a try if you haven't already

[Cody]

The longer I play 1.80 the more I wish, that everything stays as it is. I had no troubles beginning as a new Jameson and I definately have no troubles now. The difficulty level seems just perfect.

<nods> That's how I felt about 1.80 - but what would I know, eh?
I do know that 1.81 makes it tougher for a top-ranked courier!

[Sendraks]

I think the only things ED has going for it right now are its UI, the flight model for controlling your spaceship and how wonderful docking at space stations is.

Otherwise ED feels a bit lifeless compared to Oolite, especially when you have a few expansion packs installed. Certainly on a VFM basis, Oolite offers waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more for less than ED and you can tailor the game as best suits your style.

ED also suffers from the same flaw as F:E2 and FFE, in that bigger ships are pretty much better by default. In Oolite, you can have a small fast tough fighter vessel, like the Wolf MkII or the Muramasa.

Oolite also has waaaaaaaaaaaay more local flavour than ED, with most of the systems looking very samey in ED.

Hopefully Frontier will expand the games content over the next year, but right now it is a bit lifeless and very, very grindy.

[Cody]

I think the only things ED has going for it right now are its UI, the flight model for controlling your spaceship and how wonderful docking at space stations is.

<nods> Yep - that I can agree with. But overall, I feel that the game has no soul!

[ralph_hh]

ED also suffers from the same flaw as F:E2 and FFE, in that bigger ships are pretty much better by default. In Oolite, you can have a small fast tough fighter vessel, like the Wolf MkII or the Muramasa.

Frontier Elite II had the strange feature that a small ship had a long range and a bigh ship which could carry much had a short range. How should you make money by trading with this? Imagine, a Boeing 747 can fly from Sydney to Cairns but a small Cessna can do cross Atlantik runs..

[Mad Hollander]

ED also suffers from the same flaw as F:E2 and FFE, in that bigger ships are pretty much better by default. In Oolite, you can have a small fast tough fighter vessel, like the Wolf MkII or the Muramasa.

That's not correct. Viper in ED with a proper outfitting can defeat any ship. Moreover, smuggling requires small ships. Exploring requires the ships that are able for long jumps. Big ships are very special - they slow, vulnerable to different kinds of attack, very expensive and etc.

Oolite also has waaaaaaaaaaaay more local flavour than ED, with most of the systems looking very samey in ED.

I totally disagree. Look at the stars, rings, belts and etc. The planets orbit in real time. I.e. in oolite in all stations have always the same time - day/night without any changes.
There are multiple star systems, all kind of stars - sun-like, dwarfs, black holes, giants and etc. The planets and satellites are very different.

Look: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technology ... ng-4931585

If you're interested in such news, you can check this system in ED. Can you do this in Oolite ? Thanks.

[Mad Hollander]

Need to have a good variety of OXP's. Well chosen. Also do different things all the time.

Yes, that's what I mean 'losing chess'. If I know the shortest way to the station, why should I do something different ?

Well the game isn't a simulator so why would you expect it to really matter. If you added Newtonian Physics you would really dislike the game.

I didn't say anything about physics. Hull size, volume, mass do not have any significant impact in the game.
To me, the inner volume is cube of size. That means, if the ship is bigger in 10 times, the volume is bigger is 1000 times. But the strength of the structural systems is the square of size. Other words, if you increase your height in 10 times, you will become 1000 times heavier and your bones 10 times weaker - because the strength is increased just in 100 times. That's why whales live only in the ocean.
For big ships we can apply the same formula, the only difference, that big ships need just the hull that is square of size(and weight accordingly) and huge inner volume that can be used for fuel, engines and etc.

Adder? Strongest? REALLY? With one energy bar no military shields and a really slow speed the only thing really going for it is its manoeuvrability.

Yes, my friend. Try to use adder with the military laser at distances >15km. However, in dogfight it has the same chances as Cruiser boa. The only ship, that could be stronger, is Asp, because of it's speed and shields.

It's all down to the time it takes to do a jump. the further distance you jump the longer it takes to travel. 3 2Ly jumps take considerably shorter time than 1 6Ly jump. It goes back to the game recreating the atmosphere of Elite. Just how far do you want to change things?

I agree on jump range, but can't agree on fuel tank. Look at the top for explanation about size and volume.
If the the size difference is 10 times, the hull size and mass difference 100 times, but the volume differenct 1000 times.
That's why in real life the bigger truck is, the bigger profit it gains. And the biggest ships are able to sail about a year without fueling.

That's the great thing about OXP's, if you don't like them for whatever reason then you don't have to install them. Your game, your choice! What anyone else does has absolutely zero impact what happens in your game. That is one of the great thing about this game, it is so modable. One of the reasons it has thrived (not just survived) for these years.

Oolite will be used just by it's (oxp)developers

Not if you know how to play the market right.

Don't know what you mean, but I've earned about 15mln from the very beginning in about two week time playing couple of hours a day. The average profit is 1mln per day. The thing, that I can load full cargo bay using just 4 commodities. The only exception is anaconda - there are no markets, that can load such cargo bay. The difference in profit for anaconda and boa cruiser less than nothing - while you slowly flee on anaconda, boa cruiser can do several transactions.

Uber weapons, as discussed earlier are your choice. If you can write something different that works better than Pixel aiming, you're more than welcome to give it a try.

ED has shown, that no-pixel-aiming approach is significantly better.

Instead I started writing new Elite-like game

Why don't you help to make this game better instead?

I totally dislike the vector of development and, especially, direction of evolution of the game.
I spent too much time writng four simple oxp for myself. Now I'm pretty sure, that I'd better(and sooner) write some game from scratch.

[Cody]

[stuff]

Have you considered basket-weaving? Or perhaps even flower-arranging - very zen, is flower-arranging!

[ralph_hh]

Need to have a good variety of OXP's. Well chosen. Also do different things all the time.

Yes, that's what I mean 'losing chess'. If I know the shortest way to the station, why should I do something different ?

The shortest way is usually not the way that produces the most entertainment. every game you play in your life is actually a waste of time. But, hey, one happily waste it because it's fun. In Oolite you can choose to get some Uber weapon that kill them all in an instant - you probably will not have much fun - or you can install some OXP that makes your life a bit (or a lot) harder. - Your choice, don't blame the game if you make the wrong choices.

Well the game isn't a simulator so why would you expect it to really matter. If you added Newtonian Physics you would really dislike the game.

I didn't say anything about physics. Hull size, volume, mass do not have any significant impact in the game.
To me, the inner volume is cube of size. That means, if the ship is bigger in 10 times, the volume is bigger is 1000 times. But the strength of the structural systems is the square of size. Other words, if you increase your height in 10 times, you will become 1000 times heavier and your bones 10 times weaker - because the strength is increased just in 100 times. That's why whales live only in the ocean.
For big ships we can apply the same formula, the only difference, that big ships need just the hull that is square of size(and weight accordingly) and huge inner volume that can be used for fuel, engines and etc.

So, what consequences would you expect? That an anaconda can carry 100LY of fuel? It would make flying an Anaconda across the galaxy a very easy and a very boring thing. It would destroy the game balance.

Adder? Strongest? REALLY? With one energy bar no military shields and a really slow speed the only thing really going for it is its manoeuvrability.

Yes, my friend. Try to use adder with the military laser at distances >15km. However, in dogfight it has the same chances as Cruiser boa. The only ship, that could be stronger, is Asp, because of it's speed and shields.

Since Oolite does not offer Multi Player option, it's a bit difficult to finally test it player vs. player. I dare say, that if I take my Cobby against you in an Adder, each of us aiming precisely, each of us doing the same damage with ones military laser, your Adder with one energy bar and no mil. shields will be blown to pieces before my military shields are only half empty. The only advantage the adder has is its small cross section that makes aiming difficult.

Not if you know how to play the market right.

Don't know what you mean, but I've earned about 15mln from the very beginning in about two week time playing couple of hours a day. The average profit is 1mln per day. The thing, that I can load full cargo bay using just 4 commodities. The only exception is anaconda - there are no markets, that can load such cargo bay. The difference in profit for anaconda and boa cruiser less than nothing - while you slowly flee on anaconda, boa cruiser can do several transactions.

I'd be VERY curious to learn how you earn a million a day in only a few hours a day. However, Unlike in the old Elite, Oolite offers quite a few ways to earn money, so what do you miss? You may trade, you may deliver contracts (either people or trade goods or parcels), you may accept bounty hunting missions from some OXPs.

Nothing wrong in the position to prefer ED. There are thousands of games available, which one may like or not. But to be honest, the criticism of Oolite.. Well, it's difficult to understand.

[Getafix]

What I like in Oolite is exactly its weaknesses. Each weakness is an open call to anyone that wants to improve it either by actually developing or by giving and discussing on ideas, joining a community of wonderful people and finding a place to distract from every day life struggles.

It is a fact that we lOOve Oolite and we are addicted to this forum with its colorful diversity and openness. It is also rational that when we hear not so positive things about what we lOOve... it hurts and we pass to defence!
It hurts us as bad as when we hear an Ooliter in real life distress. Because, even if we have never met him/her, there is a "family thing" in here.
We are all free to praise and curse Oolite; let's not make a tabOO out of Oolite.
I am sure that already someone has started thinking how to tackle some of Mad Hollander's comments.
This is how things work here. Someone is sowing a seed (sowing is a violent activity on its own, considering what we are doing to the ground to prepare it!) and then a wonderful miracle of creation and creativity is happening!

Oolite never wanted to be E:D and E:D never wanted to be an upgraded Oolite sequel. We are talking about different goals.
This topic is not about comparing the two. This topic is about the anxiety of separation that hits us. Same as when you have a car that grew old with you for many years, that you were used to fix bits and pieces here and there, that you have an infinity of stories to talk about and at some point you have to get a new car with all the new technology stuff that you cannot touch but will make your journey more safe, comfortable and enjoyable.
You never forget your old car but you are proud of your new one!

It will hurt me seeing Oolite fading out (and consider here that I am neither that much active in the forum nor that much active in developing and as far as it concerns my level of Oolite gaming I am just a transporter exploring the space who only messes in a fight when there is a distress signal).
As long as there are developers to balance between what players need and what the game can give, Oolite will continue.

The greatness of Oolite (as far as I am concerned) is not about just a game; it is about a game with a great community to talk about it and other stuff.
(and I suggest we officially put it in the game description)

[Imaginos]

Well posted Getafix. It's this welcoming community that makes Oolite so special. There is so much bickering on Frontier's E:D forum. It's kind of ironic that Oolite is an offline only game, yet the players seem more united.

[Sendraks]

That's not correct.

It is correct. See I can play that game too.

Viper in ED with a proper outfitting can defeat any ship.

As a single player game, the Python as a combat ship is significantly advantaged over the Viper as a combat ship. The Python sacrifices very little manoeuvrability over the viper, packs far more firepower, has more shields, armour, fitting points. Etc etc etc.

From a multiplayer perspective, there are plenty who claim to be able to "pwn" any other vessel in their Viper. I frankly could care less, as I've no way of validating these claims and really am not interested in ED as a multiplayer game.

Moreover, smuggling requires small ships.

Smuggling is kind of broken and not really worthwhile at the moment.

Exploring requires the ships that are able for long jumps.

Exploring is kind of a quirky one I'll grant you. Still again ED offers linear progression in respect of explorer ships, with the bigger ship being superior to the smaller one in every respect.

Big ships are very special - they slow, vulnerable to different kinds of attack, very expensive and etc.

The only disadvantages to big ships are the price and repair costs. With the exception of the dedicated haulers, like the Type 9, big ships are not significantly disadvantaged over smaller vessels in terms of handling.

I totally disagree. Look at the stars, rings, belts and etc. The planets orbit in real time. I.e. in oolite in all stations have always the same time - day/night without any changes.

I disagree. With the exception of the different coloured suns, most systems look the same to me in ED. Sure the distance between planets/suns will vary, but there is nothing radically different to see once you arrive at your destination. The day and night changes don't add a great deal to the fun of playing the game and neither do planetary orbits.

If you're interested in such news, you can check this system in ED. Can you do this in Oolite ? Thanks.

Why should I care about doing that in Oolite?
And why should that have any bearing on whether I care about such news or not?
You realise it is possible to be interested in something and not give a crap whether it appears in a game or not.